International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum

General => Practical Knots => Topic started by: roo on September 03, 2009, 09:26:20 PM

Title: Saying Something Nice About the Sheepshank
Post by: roo on September 03, 2009, 09:26:20 PM
Have you ever been in the midst of small diameter rope that you're trying to pull without any handle-like objects to hitch onto in order to save your hands injury and maintain grip?  You might tie a loop on the bight, but, ow, maybe it still doesn't do the trick.

Well, coil up some of that rope and make a fat sheepshank (http://notableknotindex.webs.com/sheepshank.html).  Now you have a generous section (or two, if you wish) of rope with which to apply your strength.  Maybe you're not so silly after all, Sheepshank. ;D
Title: Re: Saying Something Nice About the Sheepshank
Post by: Pinrail on September 04, 2009, 07:39:59 PM
On the water or on the land,
The Sheepshank is a knot that's grand,
For Shortenin' up that piece of rope,
Whose length is more than you can cope.

 ;)

Title: Re: Saying Something Nice About the Sheepshank
Post by: roo on September 04, 2009, 08:12:29 PM
On the water or on the land,
The Sheepshank is a knot that's grand,
For Shortenin' up that piece of rope,
Whose length is more than you can cope.

Is that an original work of poetry?  :)

Maybe that can start a point of discussion for other Sheepshank uses (good, bad, or indifferent).  I know in another discussion, someone used the Sheepshank as a starting point to make a pouch knot.  They'd run each free end of rope through the nearest bight poking out each end of the Sheepshank.  
Title: Re: Saying Something Nice About the Sheepshank
Post by: skyout on September 04, 2009, 10:24:05 PM
Nice one Pinrail.

You should add one more line and submit it to the Omnificent English Dictionary In Limerick Form.
http://www.oedilf.com/db/Lim.php? (http://www.oedilf.com/db/Lim.php?)


fcaccin told us about it here:
http://www.khww.net/forum/viewthread.php?thread_id=668 (http://www.khww.net/forum/viewthread.php?thread_id=668)
Title: Re: Saying Something Nice About the Sheepshank
Post by: Dan_Lehman on September 06, 2009, 07:53:49 PM
I have never understood the supposed point of the Sheepshank:  why would one
want to "shorten" a rope by a means other than adjusting one terminus or the
other?  With a structure such as this put in, the rope becomes all the more awkward
to handle, at the same time being suspect re security.  I've never seen a good rationale;
and I see that Joop Knoop numbers it among knotting's myths such as the Poldo Tackle
(which is often presented though devoid of a hint of how to work it!)!?

Long ago in this forum, PABpres/... made claims for employing the SS in some
log-hauling work, but that use never was explained clearly, and the thread
sadly died from miscommunication & misunderstandings.

Ashley writes about the Sheepshank as though it is well understood, and is put in
ropes sometimes with toggles or seizings.  Yet Day paraphrases some captain as
remarking that the knot is seldom used at all in the then current time of 1922,
long prior to Ashley's writing.  And still, Knight's Modern Seamanship
16th ed. pub. 1977 lists the structure as among "common knots" of the day!?
Common in usage, or just common in knots book?!  There is a difference.

The use suggested by Roo above in one I've considered, though not of so much
cordage but just the basic form, and as a way to implement a shoulder strap
-- for porting a bucket, say.  Clearly, though, this requires that one has anticipated
the structure with sufficient cordage.  And, if put in a bucket's lanyard, one might
as well reeve the ends through the bights for a sure lock, vs. the TIB usual way.

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Saying Something Nice About the Sheepshank
Post by: dfred on September 06, 2009, 09:13:59 PM
And still, Knight's Modern Seamanship 16th ed. pub. 1977 lists the structure as among "common knots" of the day!?
Common in usage, or just common in knots book?!  There is a difference.

Coincidentally I just posted a link to an earlier edition of that book in the old knot works thread.  The inclusion of the Sheepshank as a "common knot" in Modern Seamanship dates from at least 1921 in the 8th ed. found here (http://books.google.com/books?id=QNICN69_LR4C&pg=PA48#v=onepage&q=&f=false) -- so the 1977 listing, if it means anything, is probably more attributable to lack of revision than anything else.

EDIT: I forgot to say something nice about the sheepshank.  :)  Here's a very early description of use from Smith's 1627 Seamans Grammar (or at least the 1691 reprint) converted to modern orthographic conventions:  "The last is the Sheepshank which is a knot they cast them upon a runner or tackle when it is too long to take in the goods, and by this knot they can shorten a rope without cutting it, as much as they lift, and presently undo it again, and yet never the worse."

It seems possible if one were using a simple windlass or some other crude winching system with a hook or eye at the end of a line to hoist items aboard a ship, then lifting objects of different heights would require a great deal of cranking to get hook/eye to the right level for lifting.  A sheepshank would provide quick way to control slack in the line...

Title: Re: Saying Something Nice About the Sheepshank
Post by: Dan_Lehman on September 07, 2009, 05:14:20 AM
Here's a very early description of use from Smith's 1627 Seamans Grammar (or at least the 1691 reprint)
converted to modern orthographic conventions:  "The last is the Sheepshank which is a knot they cast them
upon a runner or tackle when it is too long to take in the goods, and by this knot they can shorten a rope
without cutting it, as much as they lift, and presently undo it again, and yet never the worse."


It seems possible if one were using a simple windlass or some other crude winching system
with a hook or eye at the end of a line to hoist items aboard a ship, then lifting objects of
different heights would require a great deal of cranking to get hook/eye to the right level for lifting.
A sheepshank would provide quick way to control slack in the line...

Great find, Dave!  I'd seen the mention referred to, but not the words themselves.

Still, I don't follow the rationale:  if one is raising goods from deep in a hold,
a longer line is needed than if one is hoisting from upper reaches; but the hoisting
from the deeps must itself come up to the same height of daylight & beyond, no?
And having got the hook end that high, what's to do other than not lower it so
much if working next on higher stuff.

A sheepshank in a line doesn't feed through a sheave, etc., either; and that seems
a problem with using it, aside from the obvious question of simply adjusting the
rope somehow (which J.Smith implies cannot be done w/o cutting!?).  The
suggestion is, I guess, of a circumstance where the anchor end cannot be
easily re-tied, and the block needs to be raised ... ?

 ???

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Saying Something Nice About the Sheepshank
Post by: Pinrail on September 15, 2009, 03:25:21 AM
I have also often used a similar relation of the sheepshank, the bellringer's knot (ABOK #172, 173) to keep the ends of line out from underfoot around the fly floors of the theater.

As for the sheepshank itself, I have used it to shorten lines.  As previously mentioned, it would normally stand to reason that one could just as easily adjust the position of a knot securing the end of a line than tie a bulky sheepshank.  However, let me present a situation.  An object is suspended exactly where it needs to be, but must be temporarily shortened to make room below it.  Such as...a tire swing in a tree that needs to be raised to cut the grass underneath it, then released to hang at it's normal trim.  The sheepshank is the answer. 

Best regards!
Title: Re: Saying Something Nice About the Sheepshank
Post by: Dan_Lehman on September 16, 2009, 07:25:49 PM
...  Such as...a tire swing in a tree that needs to be raised to cut the grass underneath it, then released to hang at it's normal trim.  The sheepshank is the answer. 

Maybe "an answer", but a better one for both tying and releasing
would be making a Reverse Sheet bend as follows:
fold the upper grasp of the line into a bight to be hitched to;
then bring up a bight from the lower end around and then tucked
down into this bight.  (Yes, one could also tie a Sheet bend.)
pulling on the slack spills the knot, as you've finished it with
a slip-tuck (lacking ends).

Although this example still seems contrived:  why not just push through/past
the swinging tyre (or tire) -- that could even become part of the fun -- ; or
just pull the tire to one side (takes extra piece of line) ?!

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Saying Something Nice About the Sheepshank
Post by: Pinrail on September 18, 2009, 02:48:09 AM
Well...the tire swing does sound a little contrived, as I haven't personally done it, but borrowed an example from an old job.  In all fairness, I normally do push things out of the way.
Using the bellringer's knot is on the level though!
That particular description of a tying a reverse sheet bend interests me...I think I need to play with it, now where did I put that cord?
Title: Re: Saying Something Nice About the Sheepshank
Post by: DerekSmith on September 18, 2009, 10:01:58 AM
I have always thought of the SS as a static device - tie it in the rope to shorten it and leave it there until you want the 'stored' rope back again.  And as such, I thought of it as a lazy man's tool, and a clumsy one at that because it stored the spare rope in the working length which meant that some point might come where it would interfere with the use of that working rope, blocking its feed through some pulley or other equipment.

But today, courtesy of Gleipnir's knot and most recently Dan's variation on it for cross bracing a shelf, I had one of those OMG moments.

I quickly tied a SS and loosely 'fixed' the working ends to the table legs with the SS hanging limply in between - then I grabbed the two loops and pulled them apart - Eureka !! - the line tightened and the 'spare' line was taken into the SS -  it is NOT static, far from it, it is a dynamic and relatively powerful way of taking slack out of a working line (perhaps this was the operation we were all missing in log hauling post which lost its focus).  And it doesn't stop there, if the loops start to get too big and flop about out of control, just tidy them up with another hitch - the dynamic ability of the SS to take up slack still works !!

Just for fun, I tried a Gleipnir'n variation -- I tied one end of a rope to a post, then tied a SS near to the post and popped the SS loop over the post as well.  Then I tied the other end to another post, leaving a bit of slack in the whole assembly.  Now the neatest trick of the SS - I grabbed the other loop of the SS and pulled it - pulling on one 'side' of the loop took up the slack in the rope connection and pulling on the other tightened down the SS hitch at the post end - I found it easiest to work out the slack in this tighten / lock type movement.

Perhaps the SS has been languishing in disuse all these years because we forgot that it is a dynamic tool, not just a lazy man's tidy.

I now have a new respect for the humble SS and will start using it to learn more about its real world functionality.  Thanks Roo for bringing the SS back into focus just at a time when we are studying dynamic 'MonoShank' functionality.

Derek
Title: Re: Saying Something Nice About the Sheepshank
Post by: Dan_Lehman on September 18, 2009, 06:00:50 PM
I quickly tied a SS and loosely 'fixed' the working ends ...

This might point to an issue with nomenclature:  if tying the Sheepshank
by using the bights to form --in a Bowline's quick-tying method-- the
half-hitch/turns in the line, then that would make the ends "S.Parts";
but if working with the ends to place turns onto the bights, then ...
"working ends".  For MYSELF, I want a term that applies after tying,
to the completed knot (and then it might, by deduction, apply to
such parts visible in the inchoate form).

Quote
... then I grabbed the two loops and pulled them apart - Eureka !!
 - the line tightened and the 'spare' line was taken into the SS -  it is NOT static, far from it,
it is a dynamic and relatively powerful way of taking slack out of a working line
...
Perhaps the SS has been languishing in disuse all these years because we forgot that it is a dynamic tool, ...

Wow, I find this very hard to believe, given my quick test now in some
cotton cord.  Firstly, there is one side of each of the SS's bights that is shared
-- is a solid connection between them -- ; so, one cannot grasp the bights
and just pull them, as that is tantamount to just pulling one a line (with the
other part of the bight along for the ride).

IF one put 'biners through the SS bights and pulled, then the material could
rotate around the metal as the turns/HHitch parts of the SS are drawn towards
each other (albeit tightening their grip as they move).  Yes, I'll have to give
the movement another try, in some synthetic rope (maybe a nylon solid braid
and some PP laid rope).  But I cannot conceive this as a worthwhile structure
for practical use -- even if the alleged behavior can be realized.

"Forgotten ... " ??  Meaning that in the olden days of frictive natural-fibre cordage
there was some mused use of the SS in this way?  I seriously doubt it.  Joop K.
has given the SS in general a "myth" status, about which I'm curious, since there
seems to be ample *smoke* for this asserted *flame*.

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Saying Something Nice About the Sheepshank
Post by: SlipJig on September 25, 2009, 05:00:09 AM
Well I have finally lived long enough to see a really good use for a sheepshank.

Mrs Wydonkot has carved one in timber and it is a thing of beauty.  ;D
Title: Re: Saying Something Nice About the Sheepshank
Post by: [Inkanyezi] gone on January 24, 2010, 10:26:22 AM
I have never understood the supposed point of the Sheepshank:  why would one
want to "shorten" a rope by a means other than adjusting one terminus or the
other?  
/.../
--dl*
====

For a very long time I have shared the impression that Dan expresses here. I think I learned the Sheepshank as a cub scout about 55 years ago, and I sometimes have claimed that I never ever applied that knot to anything useful.

However, I now must confess that for the first time, after more than fifty years, I found practical use for it.

I was in Cuba for some weeks, and one day my wife asked me, as I was supposed to be a "knotting expert", to raise the sagging shower curtain in our back bathroom a bit. The corner of the tubing that supports it was attached to the ceiling with a thin cord, knotted at both ends. I was unable to undo any the knots and did not want to cut the cord, so I put a Sheepshank in it to get the curtain to the correct height.
Title: Re: Saying Something Nice About the Sheepshank
Post by: Dan_Lehman on January 24, 2010, 06:46:24 PM
However, I now must confess that for the first time, after more than fifty years, I found practical use for it.

Although here we should remark that this looks (IMO) more like
indeed "finding a use for <__>" than solving a rope problem
-- for which, in this particular case, I suspect the average commercial
fisherman (and maybe many other such rope users) would throw
in a Slip-knot and Half-hitch the draw-out bight (if not 2 HHs).
The first structure could serve qua directional eye-knot (bight-end
side slack).  Or they might put in an Overhand eye knot, and not
worrying much about untying.

 :)
Title: Re: Saying Something Nice About the Sheepshank
Post by: Sweeney on January 24, 2010, 07:23:58 PM
I agree wholeheartedly with Dan - I used to have a very deep venetian blind in my office the double pull cord of which trailed on the floor when the blind was fully up but it could not be chopped off or else the blind would only drop halfway in summer. A minor irritation was that the plastic tab on the cord would drop through the vents on the heating duct on the floor and be a real pain to release. A sheepshank never held properly (there was no tension in the cord to speak of) but a slipped loop and half hitch did the job  - the only problem was that the poster of knots on my wall showed a sheepshank and about once a month some smart alec would ask why I didn't use it. Toggles would make it hold but life's too short.......

Barry
Title: Re: Saying Something Nice About the Sheepshank
Post by: [Inkanyezi] gone on January 24, 2010, 09:16:53 PM
Well, Cuba is a very special place, and although anywhere else, I wouldn't care a lot about a piece of string, another cord was not in my posession. And I really did try undoing those knots, but finding them just too hard, the sheepshank was the simplest solution. Of course the tension is always there.

And it's like a confession. When I teach knotting, I always omit the sheepshank, for the reason that I find it utterly useless. Till now I used to say that I never saw the knot in use, and through so many years, I never used it myself. So there it is, once in a lifetime. It is indeed the only time I actually had use for one, and maybe it was the simplest solution in that one case. I thought of making something with a bight drawn around the tubing, but the sheepshank was so simple to make, just three half hitches on the cord and pull the bights of the center one through the other two at each end. And it fulfills its function.

I thougth of it as an anomaly; here am I, claiming that said knot is never used, and yet I did use it once.
Title: Re: Saying Something Nice About the Sheepshank
Post by: sharky on January 27, 2010, 10:01:07 AM
Say something nice about the sheepshank...

It looks really cool on a knot board! :-*
Title: Re: Saying Something Nice About the Sheepshank
Post by: alpineer on January 27, 2010, 05:00:45 PM
Say something nice about the sheepshank...

It looks really cool on a knot board! :-*

Ahh, I get it. It's a "fancy knot that just happens to not be practical"! ;D
Title: Re: Saying Something Nice About the Sheepshank
Post by: PwH on January 27, 2010, 09:14:43 PM
In defense of the downtrodden and maligned.

I quite like the sheepshank, it's been around a long time , and like an elderly maiden aunt, it may not be much use but it's a comfortable and familiar friend.

I have used a whole sheepshank once, about 2 yrs ago on my ditty bag shoulder strap, as mooted above by Dan Lehman. It's one of those variants with an extra knot in the middle, secured at each end with spring clips to allow it to shaken out and the bag clipped round a boom or other holdfast. See some pics here -

 http://picasaweb.google.com/peterwhennessey/MyKnottingToolsStringRopeKnots#

I use a half a sheepshank regularly when tying a truckers hitch, put the top ear in, twist the loop to firm it up, place the working end around the fixed hook or spar, bring thru the loop and cinch down hard. Works every time, and the harder you haul down the tighter the ear is gripped.  I guess you could use it to haul logs too, as someone mentioned earlier.

This gives rise to the saying "Half a Sheepshank is better than No Tackle!"    

(All right - I made that one up!)
 
I have also seen the driver of a crane lorry shortening an endless loop lifting sling with a sheepshank when he didn't have one the right size for the job. Not best practice, but it worked , and it's a real and genuine use for the sheepshank.

Cheers , Peter H
Title: Re: Saying Something Nice About the Sheepshank
Post by: Erickson on February 12, 2010, 02:37:03 AM
The knotting world just wouldn't be the same without the Sheepshank to argue over. How's that for something nice? I like the knot. Not for actual use, just for toying around with a bit of line while doing something else. I think the loop locks (or whatever that bit of rope mechanics is called) is just this side of magical. I have the same feeling for the Wagoneer's Hitch (Trucker's Hitch with the half SS instead of the fixed-loop-of-your-choice.) There is (as far as I know) only one knot we are not allowed to teach Scouts, and that is the Hangman's Noose. To that I add the Sheepshank for safety reasons. If I need a shorter rope, I cut it. If I can't cut it I'll use an Alpine Butterfly (by far the best choice for strength!)

So I say hurray for the Sheepshank. But, no, I can't see actually using the thing.

K-
Title: Re: Saying Something Nice About the Sheepshank
Post by: Dan_Lehman on February 12, 2010, 08:00:43 AM
The knotting world just wouldn't be the same without the Sheepshank to argue over. How's that for something nice?

Hmmm, that depends on whether one thinks that changing the
knotting world would be a Good Thing or not!

Quote
If I need a shorter rope, I cut it. If I can't cut it I'll use an Alpine Butterfly (by far the best choice for strength!)

I'm still trying to understand the "need a shorter rope" problem;
it's as though there is some Rule requiring that principal knotting
must be done at the ends(!), and so the only hope to sizing
a length comes rather sheepishly in the midst via this shanked shot
at knotting.

As for the ("Alpine"-- a species?) Butterfly being "by far the best
choice for strength," is that so?!  One tester --CMC Rope Rescue Manual (3rd)--
found it to be about 69% strong vs. an offset Fig.8 eye knot at 65%;
that is rather close, not far.  But today we see in another thread mention
of the Reever, and that can be adopted in a tied-in-bight variation for
shortening rope, and I think it will show good strength.  Beyond that,
though, I'm pretty sure a twin-eye variation of Ashley's #1408 will
be strong.  But there is a lot of testing to do in order to put more
analysis into such conjectures.  The Butterfly is a good safe choice,
and needing something stronger than any-ol'-knot suggests that
you need stronger material.  (And, unlike this Reever variation,
the Butterfly will likely be able to be untied!)

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Saying Something Nice About the Sheepshank
Post by: Erickson on February 13, 2010, 05:00:56 AM
I'm with you on the need issue Dan. I can honestly say I have never needed to shorten a line. However if I were clinging to a cliff with a damaged rope (cliffs being the favorite nesting place for alpinus lepidoptora) I'd tie an Alpine Butterfly. You're right about the nearness of the strength, but it is consistently at the top and it's just so easy to tie.

K-
Title: Re: Saying Something Nice About the Sheepshank
Post by: alpineer on February 13, 2010, 05:14:27 AM
I'm with you on the need issue Dan. I can honestly say I have never needed to shorten a line. However if I were clinging to a cliff with a damaged rope (cliffs being the favorite nesting place for alpinus lepidoptora) I'd tie an Alpine Butterfly. You're right about the nearness of the strength, but it is consistently at the top and it's just so easy to tie.

K-

And by what method do you tie it, Erickson? Btw, welcome to the forum, it's good to have you here.
Title: Re: Saying Something Nice About the Sheepshank
Post by: sharky on February 13, 2010, 05:29:51 AM
Gotta' go with Erickson on this one. The way you tie it is to take out your short rope, use a climbers hitch above the frayed part so you can remove the load by lifting yourself up. Then you quickly use the hand wrap method of tying it. If your climbers hitch slips, you have the risk of getting your hand caught in loops under a load...bad situation. This is why I prefer the thumb knot on a slip placing a half hitch over the bight with the frayed part being the bight. This removes the danger quickly without any risk to having your hand caught in several loops under a load. Same principle applies when wiring fish over 500 pounds...I have a healthy aversion to putting loops around my hand when a possible load is eminent. Almost anything is better than the SS when a person's life or limb is involved...
Title: Re: Saying Something Nice About the Sheepshank
Post by: Erickson on February 13, 2010, 05:37:05 AM
Alpineer,

Thanks for the welcome.

Three times around the palm (first near the thumb, second near the finger tips, third near the thumb) tuck the finger tip loop under the other two and pull. If I need a long loop I have to ask a friend for a hand (just kidding). For a long loop pull out a long bight, twist twice, make a turn with the loop around the middle and down (or up depending on your turn) between the two twists. It's easier than it sounds, but not as easy as using your hand.

K-
Title: Re: Saying Something Nice About the Sheepshank
Post by: roo on August 01, 2010, 03:59:57 AM
This hasn't been brought up yet, so I'll mention that the Ashley Book of Knots lists the Sheepshank as a double loop knot with communicating loops (ABOK #202 & #1088).  This is made as you might expect:  Just expand the two loops until everything is set firmly.

ref:
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/sheepshank.html
Title: Re: Saying Something Nice About the Sheepshank
Post by: knot4u on August 01, 2010, 05:04:30 AM
I didn't read the thread.  I trust the Sheepshank with double turns at each end.  It doesn't fall apart when tension is released.  I don't know why I don't see that in diagrams.
Title: Re: Saying Something Nice About the Sheepshank
Post by: Benboncan on August 11, 2010, 03:29:15 PM
How about this bizarre use

http://books.google.com/books?id=zt8DAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA1032&dq=popular+mechanics+knots&hl=cy&ei=vLJiTLffNcz94Aaq77GECg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAA#v=twopage&q&f=false (http://books.google.com/books?id=zt8DAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA1032&dq=popular+mechanics+knots&hl=cy&ei=vLJiTLffNcz94Aaq77GECg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAA#v=twopage&q&f=false)
Title: Re: Saying Something Nice About the Sheepshank
Post by: roo on August 11, 2010, 04:38:28 PM
How about this bizarre use

http://books.google.com/books?id=zt8DAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA1032&dq=popular+mechanics+knots&hl=cy&ei=vLJiTLffNcz94Aaq77GECg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAA#v=twopage&q&f=false (http://books.google.com/books?id=zt8DAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA1032&dq=popular+mechanics+knots&hl=cy&ei=vLJiTLffNcz94Aaq77GECg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAA#v=twopage&q&f=false)
Bizarre is right.  Even if you had no regard for your life, there's no reason to cut the rope (causing it to shorten for every imaginary terrace descent).  Such a suicidal person could just use an uncompleted bowline or a Bell Ringer's Knot as an analogous structure around the anchor point for the unstable knot.

ref for Bell Ringer's Knot:
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/spanloop.html
related:
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1621.msg11104#msg11104
Title: Re: Saying Something Nice About the Sheepshank
Post by: knot4u on August 11, 2010, 06:00:55 PM
How about this bizarre use

http://books.google.com/books?id=zt8DAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA1032&dq=popular+mechanics+knots&hl=cy&ei=vLJiTLffNcz94Aaq77GECg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAA#v=twopage&q&f=false (http://books.google.com/books?id=zt8DAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA1032&dq=popular+mechanics+knots&hl=cy&ei=vLJiTLffNcz94Aaq77GECg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAA#v=twopage&q&f=false)

While the pics are disturbing, I don't know of another knot than the Sheepshank to solve the problem described in the article.  The requirements were to put a load on the rope and then, later, untie the knot without having access to the knot.  (The article describes the problem better.)  If it were me, I would remain stranded on the mountain.  :D
Title: Re: Saying Something Nice About the Sheepshank
Post by: roo on August 11, 2010, 07:25:31 PM
How about this bizarre use

http://books.google.com/books?id=zt8DAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA1032&dq=popular+mechanics+knots&hl=cy&ei=vLJiTLffNcz94Aaq77GECg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAA#v=twopage&q&f=false (http://books.google.com/books?id=zt8DAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA1032&dq=popular+mechanics+knots&hl=cy&ei=vLJiTLffNcz94Aaq77GECg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAA#v=twopage&q&f=false)

While the pics are disturbing, I don't know of another knot than the Sheepshank to solve the problem described in the article.  The requirements were to put a load on the rope and then, later, untie the knot without having access to the knot.  (The article describes the problem better.)  If it were me, I would remain stranded on the mountain.  :D
Did you read my previous post?
Title: Re: Saying Something Nice About the Sheepshank
Post by: knot4u on August 11, 2010, 07:51:53 PM
How about this bizarre use

http://books.google.com/books?id=zt8DAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA1032&dq=popular+mechanics+knots&hl=cy&ei=vLJiTLffNcz94Aaq77GECg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAA#v=twopage&q&f=false (http://books.google.com/books?id=zt8DAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA1032&dq=popular+mechanics+knots&hl=cy&ei=vLJiTLffNcz94Aaq77GECg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAA#v=twopage&q&f=false)

While the pics are disturbing, I don't know of another knot than the Sheepshank to solve the problem described in the article.  The requirements were to put a load on the rope and then, later, untie the knot without having access to the knot.  (The article describes the problem better.)  If it were me, I would remain stranded on the mountain.  :D
Did you read my previous post?

Yes, and I don't understand how the knots you posted would solve the problem described in the article.  Maybe you can explain (either here or on your site) how the knots you posted would solve the problem described in the article.
Title: Re: Saying Something Nice About the Sheepshank
Post by: roo on August 11, 2010, 09:40:57 PM
Yes, and I don't understand how the knots you posted would solve the problem described in the article.  Maybe you can explain (either here or on your site) how the knots you posted would solve the problem described in the article.
For example, an uncompleted bowline tied around anchor point could hold weight, but as it is very unstable, it could be shaken free easily.  There would be no rope left left behind, either.

The Bell Ringer's Knot is almost the same as an uncompleted bowline.  The rabbit never goes back into the hole.
Title: Re: Saying Something Nice About the Sheepshank
Post by: knot4u on August 12, 2010, 03:48:28 AM
Yes, and I don't understand how the knots you posted would solve the problem described in the article.  Maybe you can explain (either here or on your site) how the knots you posted would solve the problem described in the article.
For example, an uncompleted bowline tied around anchor point could hold weight, but as it is very unstable, it could be shaken free easily.  There would be no rope left left behind, either.

The Bell Ringer's Knot is almost the same as an uncompleted bowline.  The rabbit never goes back into the hole.

OK, I get it.  Your link to the Span Loop was confusing because there's a pic there of a knot that doesn't come loose if you shake it.

Note that none of these knots should be used for descending a mountain, unless the person is super desperate.

The person would probably have a better chance of survival if they just remained stranded.  These knots are that unstable.  I just simulated the problem with the Sheepshank, the unfinished Bowline and the Bell Ringer.  If there is a pause in tension or if there is moderate shaking, then the whole thing tends to become untied rather easily.