International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum
General => Chit Chat => Topic started by: Festy on August 22, 2013, 05:00:25 PM
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Which could be termed the best, in terms of climbing, boating, towing etc..........if indeed either could be?
For instance does the Zeppelin need to be locked for safety? Is the Bowline easier to tie under stressed situations?
Or is there an even better loop out there than either of them?
What say guys?
cheers,
F
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Which could be termed the best, in terms of climbing, boating, towing etc..........if indeed either could be?
For instance does the Zeppelin need to be locked for safety? Is the Bowline easier to tie under stressed situations?
Or is there an even better loop out there than either of them?
What say guys?
cheers,
F
In circumstances with supple and/or non-slippery rope with low security requirements, a simple bowline would be faster and easier to tie.
In more demanding conditions, a Zeppelin Loop or a Water Bowline would be better choices and will better handle unusual load configurations, such as having the legs being pulled in opposite directions. Every rope type will yield differing results as far as overall security and whether you'd need augmented security measures as seen in the Monsoon Bowline or such as the repeated finish seen in a Double Zeppelin Loop. You'll need to do tests with the rope you're using simulating the motion you're expecting.
Unlike a Bowline or Water Bowline, a Zeppelin Loop requires that an overhand knot be made before threading through something, but since you're near the end of the rope anyway, this shouldn't be a major concern, especially if you know how to roll an overhand knot around with your fingers to different positions. If you need to make a yards-long loop, it'd probably be more convenient to choose a Bowline or Water Bowline, depending on security requirements.
On the other hand, a Zeppelin Loop tends to be easier to check and adjust (tail length, loop size, etc.) than a Water Bowline. Both will nicely resist jamming.
I hope that helps.
ref:
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/knotfaq.html
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/zeppelinloop.html
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/waterbowline.html
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/bowline.html
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/monsoonbowline.html
P.S. Don't forget about hitches if conditions permit. A Gnat Hitch (http://notableknotindex.webs.com/gnathitch.html) is very simple and has excellent security.
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The so-called "Zeppelin loop" is not working like the Zeppelin bend - but this should had been known to you by now, I guess. It is a fake Zeppelin knot, because the only superficial "similarity" it has with the members of the Zeppelin family of knots, the "rope-made hinges", as I like to call them, is its outline, its silhouette. If we could see with our eyes the distribution of the tensile forces inside the rope s strands in each of the two loaded knots, we could had realized the huge difference of the two structures, at an instant. Now we need to "see" with our minds a little bid - or use a thermal camera, which can detect and record the infrared part of the spectrum, radiated by friction turned into thermal radiation. We have a few other eye-knots which are much more "Zeppelin loops" than this fake one (1)(2) - although the Zeppelin bend can be considered as the only pure Zeppelin-like knot. In particular, we can say that this fake Zeppelin is half a Zeppelin and half a Hunter s knot, because the Standing part of the one link is hooked around the other Standing part, just like it happens in the Hunter s bend, but not in the Zeppelin s bend. Now, if you have a mixture of two things, and you really need to name it by the name of the one only of its two ingredients, the most famous, to pretend something, keep calling it " Zeppelin loop ". Who knows, may be after some years it will start to behave like a Zeppelin knot, indeed - by sympathetic magic (3) .
Therefore, the misleading label "Zeppelin loop", which implies that :
a, this loop is similar in structure with the Zeppelin bend, and,
b, it is THE only loop which is related to the Zeppelin bend,
is a misnomer.
If you search a little bid in this Forum, you will find enough arguments to convince you about this simple, almost self-evident fact - but you will also find people advocating with a blind zeal ( resembling the zeal of fanatics ) this evil imposter of the genuine Zeppelin family of knots, in each and every instant a newcomer to knotting / victim of the misleading label falls into this trap. It is a classic example of a not-critical knotting myth, which is perpetuated by its believers, because the imposter itself is another secure eye-knot ( as many dozens of other eye-knots based upon (ex)-symmetric interlocked overhand knot bends are ), so the line of parroting does not run the danger to be cut short.
1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3908.0 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3908.0)
2. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4095.0 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4095.0)
3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sympathetic_magic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sympathetic_magic)
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http://www.treebuzz.com/forum/showflat.php?Number=229971
See the last post on this page, concerning a verbal explanation of tying a TIB Zeppelin Loop.
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http://www.treebuzz.com/forum/showflat.php?Number=229971
See the last post on this page, concerning a verbal explanation of tying a TIB Zeppelin[ish] Loop.
There are much simpler and easier, standard on-the-bight loops with good properties:
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/butterflyloop.html
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/spanloop.html
As an aside, I think the Zeppelin Loop (http://notableknotindex.webs.com/zeppelinloop.html) is appropriately named, with about the same properties as the bend and an identical knot body, while maintaining major load paths appropriately. However, you didn't ask about that, so such an issue is off-topic.
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As an aside, I think the ... is appropriately named, with about the same properties as the bend and an identical knot body, while maintaining major load paths appropriately.
The fact that this evil imposter of the Zeppelin family of knots, the fake so-called "loop" ( which is just another of the dozens and dozens possible end-of-line loops, but it is neither Zeppelin-like, nor bowline-like ) is based on an overhand knot tied on the Standing part, is a disadvantage for yet another reason : After heavy loading, it becomes difficult to untie, in sharp contrast with either the genuine Zeppelin knot, the Zeppelin bend, or the bowline. So much for the "same properties" ! :) The claims about the "identical knot body" are 100% wrong : 50% of this mistake is due to the fact that the two bodies, when they are loaded, they are not "identical" at all The evil imposter loses the symmetry of the Zeppelin bend, and it is deformed badly. And 50% of the same mistake is due to the fact that, even if they would had looked "similar", as shapes, in some a degree, they would sill be different knots, as structures - just as an midline overhand knot, which is loaded from both ends, is very different from an overhand stopper, which is loaded only from the one.
We meet exactly the same knotting myth, which is parroted / reproduced from the one generation of knot tyers to the next : According to it, knots that look "similar" are also structurally similar ( and, why not, "identical" ! :) ), and this is what is claimed also in the case of the Sheet bend and the bowline. I find it amusing that not even ONE "knot teacher" had not spelled ONE word about the "Sheet bend "bowline" (1) - a knot much more "similar" to the Sheet bend than the bowline, yet so much different from the bowline...
The interested reader should have a look at the bend shown in the attached pictures, which is a genuine Zeppelin-like knot, and not a fake one... In this knot we can see that the Zeppelin-like knots do not utilize the "closed" topology of the two interlinked overhand knots - those two links remain entangled not because of their topology, but because of their geometry. It is because they are attached on the same pair of tails, working as the pivot of a hinge, that forces them to remain close to each other, not because they are hooked to each other. On the contrary, in this hybrid half-Zeppelin / half Hunter s so-misleadingly-called "Zeppelin loop", the two Standing parts remain in place because they encircle each other, and the generated friction forces do not allow them to slip out of the knot s nub - just as it happens with dozens and dozens practical bends based on two interlocked overhand knots.
The difficult-to-be-tied-and-untied so-called "Zeppelin loop" is not a PET eyeknot, it can not be tied and untied in one step, it is not based on a nipping turn that can always be untied very easily, it has only one Zeppelin-like link, it does not remain symmetric under loading, it is not working as a rope-made hinge...yet people are ready to compare it with the bowline ( ! ), as they compare the bowline to the Sheet bend ( without, of course, be able to explain why they always show/view them from different sides... :) ).
I do not believe that anything that is said about the huge different of those two altogether different eye-knots, or the huge difference between the genuine Zeppelin knots and the fake hybrid is irrelevant ... What is irrelevant, indeed, is the comparison of the "less-than-useful"(sic) king of the eye-knots, to a deformed ex-Zeppelin knot, and the comparison of the king of end-to-end knots, to a would-like-to-be bowline !
1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3233.msg23702#msg23702 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3233.msg23702#msg23702)
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After heavy loading, it becomes difficult to untie, in sharp contrast with either the genuine Zeppelin knot, the Zeppelin bend, or the bowline.
Interesting comment. Do you have any test data to support this? I have only done informal testing on cord with my body weight and never had a problem untying the knot - I have tried many of the locked bowline variations and found them very secure but generally quite difficult to untie and of course a common (#1010) bowline without a locking mechanism is of limited practical use in very stiff slippery rope .
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Do you have any test data to support this? I have only done informal testing on cord with my body weight and never had a problem untying the knot
Test data ? :) Have you ever seen ANY "test data" about how easy or difficult is to untie a knot ? is there an established scientific methodology which can measure some parameters that are related with this procedure ? The "data" can not be just some numbers collected during a not-well-defined procedure ! Can we "measure" the forces that are required to twist and pull a certain collar of a certain bight at the same time ? Here we can not agree if the "front-ness" is intrinsic to the knots or not, and we will agree on this ?
The interesting thing is that nobody asks test data to support the opposite, that claim the so-called "Zeppelin loop" is easy to untie - because most people are victims of the same myth : The Zeppelin bend is easy to untie, the so-called "Zeppelin loop" looks like the Zeppelin bend, have "about the same properties ( ! ! ) and an identical ( ! ! ! ) knot body "(sic) , so, by deduction, the so-called "Zeppelin loop" is as easy to untie as the Zeppelin bend ! :) Of course, nobody looks at the two loaded knots, to "see" that this overhand knot tied on the Standing part, when loaded by 100% and 50% of the total load, shrinks, locks around the more lightly loaded overhand knot tied at the Tail, and becomes compact and rock solid ! The difference from a genuing Zeppelin bend, where the overhand knots are not loaded by both sides, or from a bowline, where we do not even have an overhand knot tied on the Standing part, is almost self-evident - but myths do not need any evidences, do they ?
I have tested not only this particular evil imposter, but also ALL the other eye-knots where the nipping structure is an overhand knot tied on the Standing end, and I have always seen the same thing - which should have been expected, of course ! There is no relation whatsoever between the easiness one can untie a bowline or a genuine Zeppelin knot, a "rope made hinge", with what happens in almost all of the dozens and dozens of the eye-knots based on interlinked overhand knots ( the "B" series of bends in Miles. and then some ! ). There are even some such knots which, once tied and loaded heavily enough, they become a dense mass of rope material which simply can not be released without a marlinspike - like the eye-knot based on the Oyster bend, for example.
Moreover, I have seen that the eye-knots are more difficult to untie even in the cases where we have one only overhand, and even in the cases where this overhand knot is tied on the Tail, not on the Standing part ! In fact, one should be a little lucky to tie an eye-knot where one link is an overhand knot, that will not be difficult to get untied !
I have tried to explain the "ratcheting" mechanism that accumulates tensile forces within a shrinking convoluted tangle, in the not-so-expected ( by me, at least ...) case of the humble Clove hitch (1). I have tied a number of crossing knot- based eye-knots, where only one overhand knot was tied, and that was tied on the Tail (2), but the easiness of untying remained distinctively inferior from the bowline or from the Zeppelin bend.
Then, why people do not acknowledge this simple fact ? Judging only from the superficial appearances, by the "looks", the outline of the ropes, ignoring what is happening inside them, is one obvious reason, of course. The other reason is that they do never load the eye-knots to their strength limits - and this is also responsible for another knotting myth, that the weak point of the bowline is the bight component, which can slip through the nipping turn - so all we have to so to tie a "secure"bowline is to increase the nipping power of the nipping turn ( which is simply impossible, but lets us not discuss this now...), or add more U-turns to the bight component - and all the problems of the bowline will be miraculously resolved at once !
The truth is that the weak point of the bowline is its main component, the nipping turn, and this weakness is not related to its nipping power, by to its stability. Even if the bight component will not slip through the nipping turn, the later can be forced to open up, and release its grip on the former.
Knots where the two limbs of a nipping structure are driven within and pulled out of shrinking surrounding openings, and can be squeezed by the cocoon the other rope segments weaved around those openings, are prone to jam or to be difficult to get untied. An overhand knot or a fig.8 knot, especially when it is tied on the Standing part, should always be suspect, and, if possible, it should be avoided. It is not by chance that the bowline and the Zeppelin bend do not jam ! They shrink, they become compact, but they do not accumulate the tensile forces inside them, because the limbs of the nipping structures that penetrate them through the "core" of the nub are not imobilized by the encircling strands of the "mantle "of the nub.
My main point in my previous post was not the easiness or not of untying the evil imposter of the genuine Zeppelin loop, but its altogether different structure, which does not use the unique geometry of the Zeppelin bend ! A fake thing is not something that simply is different, it is something that, although it is different, pretends to be "identical"! THAT is what ome people had imagined they discovered in this easy pass-par-tout of eye-knots, in order to stop searching for anything else - and snub everybody Else that dares to present something different. Parroting is more effective when it is a repetition of the same reduced number of myths over and over again, so the quality they do not have is hopefully substituted by mere quantity ! We take the most simple, most symmetric, most beautiful, most unique in its working, most easy to tie, to inspected and to untie bend, and what do we do with this gem ? We shamelessly throw it into box with dozens of dozens faux bijoux - having destroyed its most useful qualities in the mean time : gone is the symmetry, the hinge-like mechanism, the easiness of inspection, the easiness of untying it after heavy loading, to say nothing about the easiness of tying it in the first place...- and, by doing everything unfair to this miracle of nature which was offered to us by the mother KnotLand, we reduce it to a hybrid, which is to the original Zeppelin bend just what the name tells : a hybris.
1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4347.0 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4347.0)
2. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3962.0 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3962.0)
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After heavy loading, it [Zeppelin Loop] becomes difficult to untie, in sharp contrast with either the genuine Zeppelin knot,
This is just plain false. Have you been tying the wrong knot all this time?
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This is just plain false.
Is it 41 ? :)
Another disadvantage of the 42 :) - sorry, the so-called "Zeppelin loop", which for some people is the solution of all the knotting problems of the Universe ( and beyond...), is due to precisely this one-sidedness, this awful ugly lack of symmetry in relation to the genuine Zeppelin knot, the beautiful Zeppelin bend. I have seen that as the "main" first overhand knot, which is tied on the Standing part, is loaded first and more forcefully, it also "closes" and "locks" first, well before the second overhand knot, which is tied on the Tail. Consequently, this second overhand knot can well remain slag, with half of its structure not participating / contributing in the locking mechanism of the knot at all. The most evident result of it is a very tight, compact, rock solid first overhand knot, that has immobilized the eye leg of the Tail without any involvement of the second loose overhand knot, which is locked before / without been able to lock. The interested reader who will load the eye-knot to its limits, will see this discrepancy between the two links, the second one remaining almost absent of the mutual entanglement. It is this lack of "balance" that characterizes even many secure bowlines. where the one, only, of the two links bears most of the strain - one can easily imagine what that will mean for the overall strength of a two links knot, which will depend on half of the available material.
To release the tightly self-locked main overhand knot, one can push the "higher" collar to the back, and so force some material to be fed into it, and facilitate the untying. However, with the climbing ropes of about 10 - 12.5 mm I use, this was not so easy - and, of course, it had no relation whatsoever.with the easiness of untying a bowline or a genuine Zeppelin knot. I have to reply to the ... comments that I had been "tying the wrong knot all this time"(sic), because I know sooo well the "clever" ways the believers will try to twist my words and conceal the most important things - all this time ! ( 5 Years...). The important thing is not that the fake Zeppelin knot is not so easily untied as the genuine Zeppelin knot or the bowline - even if we have to rely to this indirect trick mentioned to achieve this - the important thing is that the two links are so differently loaded, so unequally, the initial symmetry of the Zeppelin bend is so badly deformed, that the "imitation"(Fr.) is a disgrace to the original. Such a one-sided knot will not be able to absorb efficiently the sum of the tensile forces and re-distribute them evenly along as much of its ropelength as possible, so I expect that the ultimate strength of it will be greatly diminished. That means that the not-so-great strength of the original Zeppelin bend will be reduced even more in this evil imposter - not a good thing for a supposedly safe eye-knot.
Rien n'est beau que le vrai; le vrai seul est aimable.
Il doit regner partout, et meme dans la fable.
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...a very tight, compact, rock solid first overhand knot, that has immobilized the eye leg of the Tail without any involvement of the second loose overhand knot, which is locked before / without been able to lock.
When we see something with our eyes, we believe it - but that does not mean, of course, that we have explained its existence, which is what our mind wish to "see", with its own eyes. So, why is that so ? Why this happens in the case of the fake Zeppelin knot ( the ugly so-called "Zeppelin loop"), and it does not happen in the genuine Zeppelin knot ( the beautiful Zeppelin bend ) ?
Elementary, my dear knot tyers. With the start of the loading of the eye-knot, the overhand knot tied on the Standing part, which is pulled by both its limbs,"closes" faster than the overhand knot tied on the Tail, which is pulled by its one limb only. Therefore, at some point, the main overhand knot "locks" around the secondary one, before the later has given the opportunity to do the same around the former. The loss of symmetry of the original Zeppelin bend has grave consequences for its crippled imitator, which people that do not use their mind s eyes can not "see". The original genuine Zeppelin knot works so well because the two links are in such a perfect balance the one in relation to the other, that they are loaded equally, they close around each other at the same time, they lock and they themselves are locked at the same time, and they suffer the strain of the tensile forces in tandem, re-distributing them along the common "pivot" made by the pail of tails. Nothing of the above is happening with the evil imposter of the Zeppelin family of knots - and its ugliness, its tying complexity, its asymmetric dressing very of its final form, are only evidences of a knotting crime committed the moment some thought it would be so easy to kiss a prince, and do not transform it into a frog...
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If you don't mind that it's not pet, I would recommend a double anglers loop over a zeppelin loop. By comparison, it is harder to untie after a light load, but it is stronger and more secure, easier to tie, and it is tib. As loops go, a bowline and zeppelin loop are not two i would be comparing, since they aren't very similar at all and there is hardly ever a time when one would want to tie a zeppelin loop, given all the easier and better knots one could tie.
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If you don't mind that it's not pet, I would recommend a double anglers loop over a zeppelin loop. By comparison, it is harder to untie after a light load, but it is stronger and more secure, easier to tie, and it is tib. As loops go, a bowline and zeppelin loop are not two i would be comparing, since they aren't very similar at all and there is hardly ever a time when one would want to tie a zeppelin loop, given all the easier and better knots one could tie.
In rope work, an angler's loop being hard or impossible to untie would be a significant drawback. People don't usually want the knot welded into their rope. The Zeppelin Loop doesn't have this problem, while still being secure.
I also think it's fine to have one loop be used for on-the-bight applications, and another loop being used for end loop applications. When you try to overlap the two, you end up giving up something in one or the other application. Let a hammer be a hammer, and a saw be a saw.
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I haven't tested it myself, but I say a double angler's loop is stronger because the it has shallower turns in the standing part, especially if you redress the knot so the second wrap crosses the first. Also, seeing as it is a more common knot, i imagine there is more test data out there for the double anglers loop.
As far as roo's point, the double anglers is somewhat easier to untie than a single anglers. you can leave some slack in the second wrapping and (assuming it isn't loaded enough to pull the slack through) the slack makes an excelant handle. If you have the supplies, you can also drive a pointy stick through the middle of the knot which should be easier to pull out. If i were to teach someone one of the two (since even a single knot can be very difficult for some) I would opt for the angler's loop without a moment's hesitation.
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For instance does the Zeppelin need to be locked for safety? Is the Bowline easier to tie under stressed situations?
Or is there an even better loop out there than either of them?
...
I prefer a locked slip knot noose, myself. Just use the working end to form a half-hitch lock back over the loop itself (similar to how you half-hitch lock the Handcuff Knot to make it a Fireman's Chair).
When using the Marline Spike Hitch method of tying one, it's - extremely quick to tie/untie;
- easy and FAST to adjust the loop size;
- memorable under stress and secure (it's a single loop version of the Fireman's Chair);
- TIB and much more resistant to jamming than other TIB loops (i.e., the Alpine Butterfly comes to mind); and
- it can be ring loaded and have all 4 lines loaded in any direction (unlike the Bowline, Span loop, or Bowline on a bight)
For a multi loop, I would go with an Alpine Butterfly - BUT ONLY if all the loops were going around the SAME object. (With loading on 3+ loops, I find it doesn't jam hard any more)
For a PET loop, I'm much more partial to the Carrick Loop, but only because it's the easiest to untie. That's the most important factor to me when it's all said and done. But everybody will have different priorities depending on the job at hand, I suppose...
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http://www.treebuzz.com/forum/showflat.php?Number=229971
See the last post on this page, concerning a verbal explanation of tying a TIB Zeppelin Loop.
Hi Festy,
I was unaware that there was such a thing as a TIB Zeppelin Loop and am very interested in playing with this to learn and understand its attributes...
Could you maybe direct me to a sketch or picture of this? I'm having a very hard time trying to follow your verbal explanation. I understand from your post that you start by forming a slip knot and then I'm completely lost from that point on for what to do next...
Thanks.
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I think he meant this knot, which i like much better than the ordinary zeppelin loop, since the loading actually makes it seem like a rope made hinge.
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I think he meant this knot, which i like much better than the ordinary zeppelin loop, since the loading actually makes it seem like a rope made hinge.
"Seeming like a rope made hinge" doesn't make it better. Xaraxian eyeball & adjective analysis is worthless. Let's stick to verifiable properties that actually mean something, such as jam resistance, security, easy of tying, etc.
Such an on-the-bight loop version of the Zeppelin is much bulkier, almost impossible to adjust, much harder to tie, and not practical. It's not a contender for an end loop (the subject of this thread) due to its tying method. There are much simpler options for midline loops:
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/butterflyloop.html
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/spanloop.html
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Thanks kd8eeh,
I understand now after studying that picture. I've been playing with this TIB type of Zeppelin loop for several minutes and now I see how it can quickly be tied through a loosened slip knot...
Some observations,
- It is bulky (but I think that is to be expected with anything Zeppelin).
- It doesn't jam or slip when ring loaded or pulled from one or both ends in the same direction.
- Neither is it easily adjustable.
- It's not going to rattle loose, no matter which way the lines might be tugged.
- When the ends are loaded opposed to each other, the loop knot transforms into a type of dropper loop knot at 90 degrees to the line.
My thoughts keep changing about this knot, it's kind of growing on me now as I keep experimenting with it as a dropper loop...
It's quite strong, but rather convoluted to both tie and untie. Definitely not one of my favorites, but I don't mind it either. As a dropper loop when loaded it takes quite a while to untie, working all the turns loose, but is easier to untie than a single Alpine Butterfly loop jammed after heaving loading...
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- It [midline loop attempt at a Zeppelin knot form] is bulky (but I think that is to be expected with anything Zeppelin).
The Zeppelin Bend/Loop is relatively trim using a total length of only about 34 rope diameters. That's partly why it's so easy to adjust. The bulkiness you correctly see in the midline loop attempt of a Zeppelin knot form is due to the forced, cringe-worthy duplication of rope paths in the knot form, not so much a property of the underlying form.
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Yes I agree, it's not really a Zeppelin.
It's not particularly pleasant to work with either, imo.
Ah well, the TIB Zeppelin Loop remains to be elusive it would seem. Too bad.
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What do you think of this tib zeppelin like loop? I wrapped the tail around twice because the knot is otherwise too unstable and will capsize and slip, but it has the same collar and binding structure as a zeppelin, minus one half turn around the middle.
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I like it! I like it A LOT!! But it's actually a Perfection (Angler's) Loop with 2 wraps instead of 1.
I've never considered this as a mid-line loop before and I'm not sure why I've overlooked it for so long... :o
It withstands ring loading and loading from any direction on all 4 lines.
Loop size can be easily adjusted right before the final tuck and the loop length loss after the final tuck is negligible.
Tying it in the Bight is simple enough with practice. Start with a simple half twist loop, continue with 2 wraps around this half twist using the working end side of rope, then adjust your desired loop length by pulling the standing end of rope in through and back out of the wraps, finishing off by pulling the final loop through the tuck, dressing it tight. (It's easier than it sounds).
Untying is not difficult at all, if tackled from behind before the tackling the front. You just "break the back" of the second wrap before attempting to pull the loop back out of the tuck, then it's easy-peasy, no matter what loading took place.
Nice find/discovery kd8eeh! :)
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If you don't mind that it's not pet, I would recommend a double anglers loop over a zeppelin loop. By comparison, it is harder to untie after a light load, but it is stronger and more secure, easier to tie, and it is tib.
:-[ Doh! I see you've already talked about this as TIB mid-line loop. One of these days I'll learn to read first...
To your credit though, you're the first person I know of that has mentioned it as a TIB loop, it's always been described as an end-of-line loop everywhere else, to my knowledge.
Cheers!
Edit: Son-of-a... This exact same knot also goes by the name of Double Dragon here:
http://daveroot.atspace.cc/knots/Knots_SingleLoops.htm
You know, I remember seeing that site years ago and for some reason I didn't like tying the DD or had trouble with it or something or other and just dropped it of my list. Ironically, it's virtually the same way I tie it now (kind of inbetween method 1 and method 2 - just to keep it compact in my hand during the tying)... Weird.
I'm going to stop talking now. *removes foot from mouth*
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Hi NotSure,
Yes,the TIB loop shown above by kd8eeh,is not a double wrapped Angler's loop,which is not PET. It is a TIB and PET double wrapped Tugboat B(the loop well known as Double Dragon is the double wrapped Tugboat A) .If you perform the three loops shown at the Dave Root's site using the end of the rope rather than tie them on the bight, you will notice that the first two do not require the construction of a knot before returning back with the second leg of the eye to end the loop, whereas the Perfection / Angler's loop requires you to perform before an Overhand knot.
In some old thread of this forum, roo points out that, although TIB, these loops are more suitable to be used as end-line loops, rather than in the middle of the rope loaded by both ends(even if in fact the double wrapped versions are more stable).
You can enjoy to note the differences between these three loops, and if you want,you can compare them to these other http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4354.0 , at first glance very similar but actually very different, and you can also play "Exchange the position of collars" of these three loops as suggested here http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4603.0 , or ideally do "cut and paste" as suggested here http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4476.msg28967#msg28967 , and see what happens!
For other loops that act as rope made hinges by xarax and Dan Lehman: http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4095.0
Bye!
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Thanks Luca,
Those are some interesting links that I've skimmed through before, I think, and I'll be studying in a little more detail now that my interest is a little more peaked. I've got a lot of respect for X1/Xarax's contributions, but I find some of his creations get a little too loopy (literally) for my fumbling fingers to manipulate.
I lovvve knots that fall apart when it comes time to unravel them (ie, like a carrick bend/loop, or a zeppelin bend), without have to resort to a slipped section that could get caught and explode the knot.
The only reason I pursued this TIB Zeppelin loop was because if one did exist, I believe it would probably be even easier to untie than a fireman's chair knot, after being heavily strained.
The double dragon seemed promising, it beats a single loop alpine butterfly, but not the locked slipped loop, imo. So the never ending search for improvement continues.
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To your credit though, you're the first person I know of that has mentioned it as a TIB loop, it's always been described as an end-of-line loop everywhere else, to my knowledge.
NB: "TIB" doesn't necessarily mean that the
knot is good as a mid-line knot, only that
it can be tied without using ends --and sometimes
that alone is a helpful feature.
And, as discussed in another thread, one might
seek to use an eyeknot qua mid-line knot even
though it's not TIB --that the tying with the ends
will be acceptable given the use (or maybe the
shortness of the line) and the suitability of that
particular knot.
--dl*
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