International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum

General => New Knot Investigations => Topic started by: Kost_Greg on December 26, 2019, 10:12:11 PM

Title: A crossing knot link bowline
Post by: Kost_Greg on December 26, 2019, 10:12:11 PM
Or a two collar bowline, or a bowline with a crossing knot collar structure, or even a figure eight collar structure bowline.

A proper bowline this time, with a simple helical loop nipping component and a more complex collar system. One might wonder about the practicality of this knot, and what exactly is the crossing knot adding to the structure.
I would comment as follows:

1.The crossing knot link is adding more tail maneuvers to the bight structure, than a simple bight in a common bowline, putting three rope diameters in the nipping loop, enhancing security.

2.The final tucking of the WE under that X, which is formed by the nipping loop and the returning eye leg, adds more constriction and makes the knot TIB if we drive the WE down through the collar.

3.The two bights (collars) in front and back of the nipping loop, make the knot less prone to jamming, as the collars tend to "brake/bend" more easily after high tension.

There are several variations, depending on the chirality of the nipping loop and the crossing knot, as well as on the version of the bight structure (left right hand), but not all of them are TIB. It appears that the WE must exit from the side of the SP, to ensure the Tibness of the knot, as shown in fourth image.

Happy new knotting year!!
Title: Re: A crossing knot link bowline
Post by: Keystoner on December 28, 2019, 10:45:51 PM
If you can't tie a knot, tie a lot.

You're here so I'm pretty sure you're quite knowledgeable about knots but that sure seems like A LOT!
Title: Re: A crossing knot link bowline
Post by: Kost_Greg on December 29, 2019, 09:58:43 AM
Quote
If you can't tie a knot, tie a lot.

Thank you keystoner, this is a good advice for anyone who can't tie knots, but on the other hand, if you know too many, it might not be an easy task to pick one, which will serve you better for your purpose!

If i may, i'd like to add another saying from a great knotter of our time, i have heard recently.....

The curse of a knot tyer, is that he is doomed to an eternal, endless, labour-intensive searching among those "tie a lot" fuzzy tangles, in order to find the ultimate knot structure, his Philosopher's stone of knots!

Will he ever find it?............... Most probably never!  :)
Title: Re: A crossing knot link bowline
Post by: Keystoner on December 29, 2019, 03:58:35 PM
if you know too many, it might not be an easy task to pick one, which will serve you better for your purpose!
This is exactly my problem!  I'm a knot hound, I know a lot of knots, I love picking the brains of other knotters, but I don't have to tie them often so when confronted with a situation, I'm slow to choose, and most likely, I choose poorly.
Title: Re: A crossing knot link bowline
Post by: Kost_Greg on December 30, 2019, 01:58:32 AM
I see what you mean, i have also confronted with such situations. For instance, once before, i had incorporated an inline directional  figure, 8 in a trucker's  hitch system to secure a load on my truck. That was prooved to be a poor choice for me, as the directional figure 8 was not so easy to untie afterwards.

I would say that i am a bowline-oriented type of guy, for easy untying, so i have narrowed the bandwidth. Even so, there are still plenty of bowlines to choose, from the very simple for every day work, till the more complex with two or three lines of defence against slippage, and everything in between, depending on the application. Of course, there are alternative knots, other than bowlines, that can handle heavy loading, so it might be a subjective decision which one to use, that best meets your needs!
Title: Re: A crossing knot link bowline
Post by: Kost_Greg on January 04, 2020, 05:08:10 PM
Getting back in the original post, this is a depiction of a double version of the previous bowline. The difference is that the WE, is not being tucked now under that X, formed by the nipping loop and the returning eye leg, but down through the crossing knot collar just before forming the second eye of the knot. It then follows the line of the first eye, exiting from the bowline collar, in a parallel configuration to the SP.

A nice TIB double loop, with the same properties as mentioned previously, tied "in the end", but also tiable in the bight.
Title: Re: A crossing knot link bowline
Post by: enhaut on January 04, 2020, 11:49:59 PM
Nice one!
I have not tied it yet but I felt that your photos deserved an appreciation!
The all-important light background is indeed helping the definition of the form.
Good choice!
Title: Re: A crossing knot link bowline
Post by: Kost_Greg on January 05, 2020, 02:14:36 AM
Thanks Enhaut, it looks like i have found a door, more like a porch facing west (indeed it's west :)). Brave enough to defy the wintery conditions, (not snowy but it is bitter cold outside), and make the most of the psysical lighting, late in the day, in order to capture this tangle.

I am not into dual-eye knots a lot, but occasionally, i come across with some interesting structures to tie and further evaluate. Beyond being a bowline, this knot looks to be either end loadable (EEL), but i am not sure which end to load for better performance.
Title: Re: A crossing knot link bowline
Post by: Kost_Greg on January 20, 2020, 12:14:01 AM
To carry this concept forward, why not capture both eye legs and create a two collar bowline knot, shown in the first three images.The knot, as previously, has three rope diameters in its simple helical nipping loop, keeping also the tibness property and being highly jam resistant.
 The turn of the WE when passing up through the nip for the first time, enables the adding of another level of security, if the WE is passed under that turn before exiting from the bowline collar (this structure is not illustrated though).

This bowline structure, could be regarded as a bottle sling configuration, as it appears in the first image, in a loose (mat) fashion.

An arguable query, would be if the WE should pass through the nipping loop for a third time. The answer is positive if a bowline is to be created anyhow, but the fourth image structure, omits this step, as the WE, after forming the bowline collar, passes under the crossing knot collar (near the eye), nip-side, following the line of the SP, in a parallel two-end orientation that retains the tibness of the knot. The result is a stable knot with two inverse synthesized collar components, that would never block, with a decent ring loading profile if dressed and cinched properly.

It is quite remarkable, the fact that this knot and its variations (depending on the handedness of the collars and the nip), can be untied very easily, even after high strain loadings.

However, deformation issues of the core nub, induced by the crossing factor which encircles both eye legs should be investigated in both knots, when being heavily loaded and/or the eyes are hitched to larger diameter objects.
Title: Re: A crossing knot link bowline
Post by: Kost_Greg on February 17, 2020, 01:08:00 AM
This topic, has to do in essence with the use of a crossing knot, as a collar component embedded in a simple helical nipping loop, in building up two collar bowlines.

The next coherent step, is to alternate the simple helical nipping loop with a crossing knot nipping structure and stabilize it with another crossing knot, as part of the collar now configuration, where its continuation captures/collars the on-going eye leg and exits in a parallel two end orientation, following the line of the sp down through the collar (first image loose knot).

This figure eight collar component, although a bit cord hungry, contributes to the creation of a TIB, three collar, crossing knot based loop, in a reverse enhanced 1051 fashion, with two direct lines of defence against slippage, as shown in the next two images in front and back view accordingly.

I prefer the reverse 1051 style, which has a more compact and tidy form, but this method might be equally expanded to create enhanced reverse bowlines, more like crossing knot based loops.This should rather be done by entering from the other side of the nip, for a clear visualization of the crossing knot/figure eight collar structure stabilization system (not illustrated).

Performing a slight eye shrinking transformation of this knot by pulling the on going eye leg, could lead to a TIB noose/one wrap hitch development, almost similar to the one presented here (fourth image), https://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=6382.msg43009#msg43009 (https://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=6382.msg43009#msg43009), but with a different handedness of the crossing factor (fourth image).

Title: Re: A crossing knot link bowline
Post by: Kost_Greg on February 21, 2020, 11:56:06 PM
In relation to the previous knot, i would venture to state that it is either end loadable (EEL).

At first, i was taking a sceptic view on using a closed form scheme as part of the nipping system, but then again this topological geometry of the figure eight structure, shown in first image, seemed less prone to jamming than its clasical known formation.

Well, as a drawback, this is not a post eye tiable knot (PET), the figure of eight is always present, but it coordinates nicely with the crossing knot collar structure, so as to ensure the tibness of the knot. This should be expected anyway, since the knot is the reverse of the previous structure, an enhanced 1051A eye knot.

Would this geometry be sufficient to extend figure eight's jamming thresholds? Unquestionably, the nip collar would avail a great deal to release the pressure that is accumulated by the figure eight at heavy loadings, hence the idea of deriving a type of bowline, or an eskimo out of this configuration, would be rather alluring, although it would never qualify as such, as not being PET.
Title: Re: A crossing knot link bowline
Post by: agent_smith on February 22, 2020, 03:50:21 AM
Just to be clear...
With respect to the knot structure shown at reply #10, this isn't a 'Bowline'.

The reason I am posting this point of clarification is that the title of your thread is "A crossing knot link Bowline".

As such, a casual reader might look at your reply #10 images and think this is some type of 'Bowline', which it isn't.

This post is not an attack nor is it intended to be offensive.
Rather, I am simply drawing attention to the title of your thread topic - which is not compatible with the knot structure shown at reply #10.
Title: Re: A crossing knot link bowline
Post by: Kost_Greg on February 22, 2020, 02:04:37 PM
Quote
As such, a casual reader might look at your reply #10 images and think this is some type of 'Bowline', which it isn't.

I believe you are right, i have drifted away a bit, thus it would be peculiar but quite possible for a casual reader to confront with a `non bowline structure` after a direct hit to reply#10, where indeed the knot structure presented, is not compatible and does not line up with the title of this thread as you correctly point out.

Having said that, would he/she start reading from the very beginning, i think he/she would have found  meaningful  this presented coherent knot structure flow.

If i may, i'd like to remind/pinpoint that the knot structures posted in replies #9 and #10, as well as the fourth image structure posted in reply #8, are not bowlines by definition.

Quote
hence the idea of deriving a type of bowline, or an eskimo out of this configuration, would be rather alluring

In providing some sort of clarification, as you already know, a 1051 style knot could be easily transformed/tied as a bowline-like type of knot, if the WE is fed through  and being clamped by the sub-nipping loop of the figure eight that first came in, for more constriction,  but it would not qualify as virtual bowline anyway,  with a non-tib nipping structure.

Nevertheless, i am interested in analyzing this figure eight geometry, and i would certainly like to know, if you (or anyone else) have tied/seen it before as a nipping structure component.

Quote
This post is not an attack nor is it intended to be offensive.

Why would i find a related comment, like yours, as being offensive? All knot related comments are respectful, from the positive to the harsh and everything in between and are much appreciated.

Thanks for taking the time to view, tie ,evaluate and leave a comment.

Title: Re: A crossing knot link bowline
Post by: Kost_Greg on February 29, 2020, 12:23:49 AM
 
hence the idea of deriving a type of bowline, or an eskimo out of this configuration.....

if the WE is fed through  and being clamped by the sub-nipping loop.....


Eventually, i have come to depict the knot structure described in these comments, shown in the first two images, for the reason that it may serve as a reference knot for any subsequent post. Besides, this figure eight based pseudo TIB bowline seems to work just fine in terms of stability and jam resistance, with a boost in its overall security and a solid ring loading profile.

The other two knot structures illustrated in the next two images, are instances with different loading profiles of the knots at reply#9 and reply#10 accordingly.

Again, these knots are not bowlines.
Title: Re: A crossing knot link bowline
Post by: Kost_Greg on March 02, 2020, 12:40:51 AM
Beyond their good level functionality, one other reason for which these figure eight based tangles drew my attention, whereupon being planted in this thread, is that they are topologically equivalent to crossing knot link knots, bowlines or not, fitting in this current knot assemblage.

Verily, getting back in the main subject and aligning with the title of this thread, two knot structures are illustrated here, in a loose and tight form, directly originated from the previous figure eight based instances, with two consecutive tugs of the on going eye leg and its continuation cords, in both knots.

The first knot is a bowline, with a simple helical S nipping loop, having three rope diameters in it, topologically equivalent to the figure eight based pseudo bowline, posted at reply#13. The relatively effortless yielding of the two collars after intense streching/loading events, decompresses the strain accumulated in the nipping loop, therefore boosting its jam resistance.

The second knot, is topologically equivalent to the enhanced figure eight based 1051 knot, posted at reply#10, hence by extension not a bowline, with two rope diameters in its nip, but also very easy to untie.

If i was to pinpoint some drawbacks, i would comment that these closely related two collar TIB knots, have not the best ring loading profiles, but sufficient if properly dressed and cinched, plus their nubs, do not line up properly with the eye of both knots. Beyond the aesthetics, it is this very transformation process that causes this shifting to the axis of knot symmetry, which together with the crossing factor may induce some deformation, if the knots are subjected to high tensile forces. Moreover, the simple helical nipping loop constitutes detterent the development of a reverse loading profile, hence there would be no EEL qualification in this geometry.
Title: Re: A crossing knot link bowline
Post by: Kost_Greg on April 03, 2020, 07:06:14 PM
                                                                         A strange equivalence         

The knot structure illustrated in the first three images, is a two collar double eye knot, EEL and TIB, but not a bowline. The nipping loop, does not constrict both collar legs, one of them is not being fed through the nip, but it is being driven through the crossing knot collar, near the eye.

A bizzare but rather easy tsansition from this instance, to an Eskimo bowline on a bight might take place, if one pulls both the returning eye legs, working out the slack of the initial eye. A proper dressing is required, to achieve the appropriate Eskimo's `tresse`, shown in fourth image.

Undoubtedly, this alternate knot geometry presented here, is alleged to have an edge in terms of jam resistance, in relation to Eskimo, but is this property sufficient in order to brake the symmetry of an Eskimo structure with a `tresse` like this? Tough to answer :-\.

Note, that the transition from the Eskimo to this structure is not so obvious.

A handedness alternation of the crossing knot collar, produces similar results.

Title: Re: A crossing knot link bowline
Post by: Kost_Greg on February 28, 2021, 06:20:05 PM
                                                       Abok#1443, single carrick, link bowline

First image, illustrates a 1443 based initial dressing state, tied as eyeknot of course, and a pseudo final energy state, not the final energy state Ashley depicts for 1443, but a transformed equivalent topology (for Ashley's result, just load the initial dressing state from the Spart and the returning eye leg).

In any case, these "half knot configurations", as i call them, with the 1033 components in a reverse usage (simple loop as nip, crossing knot as collar, in contrast with 1033), could not be considered as being the stablest forms, while Ashley points out, that the corresponding bend, slipped with medium loads.

This is an attempt of completing the depicted pseudo final energy state by constructing a stable bowline structure.

For those who are not into initial dressing states or transformations, they could simply insert a bight down through an S nipping loop, feeding then WE down through this very bight by capturing nipping loop's crossing point.

The next coherent step is to form the collar and come back up through the nipping structure.To track down the tibness, is to rethread WE down through the collar structure channel, in a side by side two end orientation, as shown in the next three images.

Advantages

1. A TIB bowline.

2. Three rope diameter in the nipping loop.

3. There is a non-jamming collar due to the crossing knot link geometry, which grips its continuation.

4. If you hold the tug end and pull the returning eye leg, you create a nipping loop slack which i find a useful property for the untying process.

Disadvantages

1. A rather complex collar structure, in particular at its link segment.

2. I'm not so sure about the EEL ability, because due to the fourth property mentioned previously, it may not be wise to load the knot from the WE, in reverse.
Title: Re: A crossing knot link bowline
Post by: Dan_Lehman on March 01, 2021, 06:28:53 PM
                                                                         A strange equivalence         

The knot structure illustrated in the first three images,
is a two collar double eye knot, EEL and TIB,
but not a bowline. The nipping loop, does not constrict both collar legs,
one of them is not being fed through the nip,
but it is being driven through the crossing knot collar, near the eye.
It has a central nipping loop, ergo => *bowline*!

 :)
Title: Re: A crossing knot link bowline
Post by: enhaut on March 02, 2021, 03:00:59 PM
@tsik_lestat
Hi,
It is a nice and well-balanced loop. At some point we have a clover leaf likeness, you could even have named it "Triphullon Loop" for the nice Greek ring of it.
I have used my jamming prone rope to tie and untie this knot, I found out that the loose collar gives us an easy access to the nipping structure and therefore capabilities in the untying process.
Maybe a TIB method would be simpler to tie this loop?to be seen.
Good idea to present the half-knot, it was of a great help for me.
The image shows a loose state and indicates my preferred route to slacken the knot.
Please excuse the poor quality of my phone camera.
jr.

Image Tsik_lestat knot loose state
Image Tr?fle = Clover
Title: Re: A crossing knot link bowline
Post by: Kost_Greg on March 03, 2021, 08:54:44 PM
Hello Enhaut, the "triphullon" or "trefoil" descriptor, due to the clover likeness, is indeed a nice conception that coordinates well with this particular topology, but i'm afraid it is taken, as i have attached it to another eyeknot, which i have not yet presented, maybe later in some other thread.

The nub, appears to be pliable enough to slacken, precisely in the order you have described, when heavily loaded, while if you isolate the "supposed complex" collar component, you will realize that it is simply a figure eight, in a slightly different geometry.

There is another form i have encountered, with only two rope diameters inside the nipping loop, but i believe it is inferior to this structure.

A double version of this knot had made an appearence here: https://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=6451.msg43652#msg43652 (https://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=6451.msg43652#msg43652)

Many thanks for giving it a try!