Grapple hitch

[twinbee]

Hope I'm not too late to add to this thread - I just found the link while checking through my site logs. Yup I made that "The Amazing Zeppelin Bend and Grapple Hitch" article, and it could certainly do with an update...

First off, the 'Grapple Hitch'. I also had someone email me a while back, and inform me that it was actually ABOK #1471. So is it that or #1231 as mentioned in this thread?

In any case, it turns out that the Grapple is probably not the all encompassing panacea that I was hoping it would be (not that I ever believed 100% it was despite the erm... enthusiasm I gave to it ). I had an email from a Martin a while back, and I'm sure he won't mind me pasting an excerpt here:

I have been doing the grapple hitch in the first form, without the bringing the loop over the the tail.  In this form it tends to slide under heavy load since it only has about 3/4 of a turn biting the rope.  Especially in that slick, smooth solid braid nylon that most hardware stores have. Unless you tighten it in a way that kinks the main run (like pull the tail real hard), but then it is at least temporarily non-adjustable. When it does slide, it doesn't untangle, it just doesn't grip quite strong enough.  I like adjustable hitches to slide easy, but then grip hard.
by the time I get the first form gripping reliably, it is either very hard to slide or actually locked with that slight kink it gets in the main run.

I tried the second form, and while it does work, it does seem to have a couple different styles of capsizing depending on how you tighten it.  These capsized forms seem to be non-adjustable and I find getting them uncapsized back for adjustment clumsy.  I suppose that is the nature of this knot, and I would have to get more comfortable with using the form changes to make it useful. I guess I'm more comfortable with a knot that does all its functions in one form.

I sometimes use the tucked tautline/rolling_hitch, which is like the midshipman's hitch in that it locks by performing a slight kink of the knot.  But the kink is small and easily straightened with a single pinch.  That is probably the only two-form knot I use, but I don't use it much because I don't like the sloppy trailing single hitch.

When I put the tail into the 'upper' loop, I don't seem to get much of a knot at all. Maybe I misunderstand your directions.

Hi Dan,

e.g., it's pretty easy to see that it won't hold in some common materials and loads (something one should be chary of just from visual examination of the knot).

Are you 100% sure about this? Can you give me example materials to try, and an experiment to see that it may not be as strong as I thought. Maybe the knot is more secure than it appears...

You might be surprised to realize that there are several loopknots corresponding to the Rosendahl's Zep. bend.

Would these be as effective as the Zep in most or all departments though?

The F. is compactly solid, round; the RZ. is more open, flat (the "flat" aspect presents a great face for dragging over a surface, with collar-away).

Maybe this is easier to discern visually without the need for testing, but has the Zep ever been tested in a real life commercial fishing scenario? The fact that it isn't more popular in other industries and for general use could indicate that *maybe* it could be appropriate (though not ideal) for the job.

[squarerigger]

Thanks Dan,

It is taking me a while to respond these days because I am trying to wrap up all the loose ends on completing my second Masters degree.  I'll talk with you about the Fall Fishermen's Festival though - from what I understand (correct me if I am wrong here Pat and Brian) there were just too many people around for our two plucky representatives there to take any time out for real or imaginary research, because there was always a crowd of people around the stand wanting to talk about knots.  Try as they might our two intrepid heroes just could not break away.  Better luck at this year's festival maybe? [hint, hint, Pat and brian - see Dan's posting]

SR

[Dan_Lehman]

First off, the 'Grapple Hitch'. I also had someone email me a while back, and inform me that it was actually ABOK #1471. So is it that or #1231 as mentioned in this thread?

They are the same.
(Maybe they'll be next up for someone to do for the sloooooooowly progressing ongoing
work on an Improved Index for ABOK !)  --there are many duplicates in the book
(which is one count against the simplistic counting the last image # as the total # of contained knots!).)

I

e.g., it's pretty easy to see that it won't hold in some common materials and loads (something one should be chary of just from visual examination of the knot).

Are you 100% sure about this? Can you give me example materials to try, and an experiment to see that it may not be as strong as I thought. Maybe the knot is more secure than it appears...

Well, you quoted one respondent citing a common material in which it didn't work.
I'd say that most any stiffer material (and he cited one that is usually rather flexible
and compressible), or firm material, it should be easy to demonstrate slippage.

You might be surprised to realize that there are several loopknots corresponding to the Rosendahl's Zep. bend.

Would these be as effective as the Zep in most or all departments though?

No.  I just found a directional/inline corresponding loopknot, btw..

The F. is compactly solid, round; the RZ. is more open, flat (the "flat" aspect presents a great face for dragging over a surface, with collar-away).

Maybe this is easier to discern visually without the need for testing, but has the Zep ever been tested in a real life commercial fishing scenario?
The fact that it isn't more popular in other industries and for general use could indicate that *maybe* it could be appropriate (though not ideal) for the job.

I doubt it.  I do think that the Alaskan crabbers could come to like it.

--dl*
====

ps:  SquareRigger, what needs looking to is the "two", not the "too".  Two is too close to zilch!  Rattle Seattle!
      (And maybe some clever/adjacent location of some respective "booths" would facilitate exchange?)

   Congrats & best wishes on your mastering those loosEnds.  (Better roll than to grapple with them, IMO.)   

[Mike]

So, wich is the better adjustable loop?  "Adjustable grip hitch" or  "Grapple Hitch"?   

[Mike]

Well, it seems I just answered my own question.  I tried both of them in 550 paracord.  I was able to get the Grapple Hitch to slip when I pull hard. The Ajustable Grip Hitch didn't move.  The Grapple Hitch was slightly easier to untie after a heavy load.  I think I will stick with the AGH afterall.

[Dan_Lehman]

So, wich is the better adjustable loop?  "Adjustable grip hitch" or  "Grapple Hitch"? 

It might be that you prefer the less grippy IN COMBINATION WITH a guarding Half-hitch
or double turn, thereby getting the former's benefit of easier untying, but still having
sure grip!?  There's no law against using knots together or with helpers.
(When commercial fishers join snood lines to a longline, they make use of
the longline's lay to embed some part of the snood, for sure gripping
--of staying tied and staying in position--, rather than trying to find some
particular knot that does all this alone .)

 

[Mike]

I started using the Adjustable Grip Hitch with one extra wrap around the standing part before the final half hitch.  It holds extremly well and still remains easy to adjust and untie.  In small slippery cord like 550 paracord, it is much better than the Grapple Hitch or the regular AGH, IMO.