Author Topic: Error in Knots Chart  (Read 4402 times)

dmacdd

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Error in Knots Chart
« on: May 25, 2010, 06:58:32 PM »
In the pdf, Knots Charts,

http://www.igkt.net/pdf/KnotChartsWeb.pdf

the entry for Hunter's bend, p.31, is thoroughly wrong.

Step C is not a development from step B, because of a change from B to C in the overlap arrangement.  If step C is followed closely, an unstable knot is produced that is neither a Hunter's bend nor the knot shown in step D. If the overlap error introduced into step C from step B is corrected, the result is the very good bend shown in step D. Unfortunately, it's a Zeppelin.

dmacdd

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Re: Error in Knots Chart
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2010, 07:17:34 PM »

Quote
If step C is followed closely, an unstable knot is produced that is neither a Hunter's bend nor the knot shown in step D. If the overlap error introduced into step C from step B is corrected, the result is the very good bend shown in step D. Unfortunately, it's a Zeppelin.


Oops. My bad. It's not a Zeppelin. But neither is it a 1425A. Also, it's may not be the good bend I suggested when I thought it was a Zeppelin.

Sweeney

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Re: Error in Knots Chart
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2010, 08:27:31 PM »
I agree - as soon as I have a minute I'll remove this chart unless I can amend it.

Barry
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Sweeney

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Re: Error in Knots Chart
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2010, 09:56:05 AM »
I have had a go at amending diagram C to what I think it should look like. Anybody agree/disagree?

Barry

roo

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Re: Error in Knots Chart
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2010, 03:18:59 PM »
I have had a go at amending diagram C to what I think it should look like. Anybody agree/disagree?

Barry


The diagram posted seems wrong to me, which may or may not be due to the ambiguity on the final paths of the free ends.  But, stepping back a little, why not just delete the dreaded, jammy Hunter's Bend? 

If you keep it, how can you justify excluding the myriads of other jammy bends?
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Sweeney

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Re: Error in Knots Chart
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2010, 06:21:05 PM »
I have to admit that it's a knot I dislike and never use. However it was this knot which triggered the formation of the Guild and many have a sentimental attachment to it hence its inclusion. If the diagram is either not right or too likely to cause error in tying I will certainly remove it. Although these charts should be kept in the archives I do wonder about their value against tutorials/diagrams on other websites. Are they worth keeping on the site or are they too outmoded now?

Barry

roo

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Re: Error in Knots Chart
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2010, 06:58:44 PM »
I have to admit that it's a knot I dislike and never use. However it was this knot which triggered the formation of the Guild and many have a sentimental attachment to it hence its inclusion. If the diagram is either not right or too likely to cause error in tying I will certainly remove it. Although these charts should be kept in the archives I do wonder about their value against tutorials/diagrams on other websites. Are they worth keeping on the site or are they too outmoded now?

Barry

Due to unknown technical issues, I'm unable to view the .pdf in question, so I don't know if the bend's problems are addressed, and I don't  even know the thrust of the document as a whole.  However, I really don't think the IGKT owes anything to the Hunter's bend.  People may just have well got together over problems with any old random knot, but that doesn't mean that such a hypothetical knot should be taught or publicized in the context of having intrinsic value over other knots.

To answer your other question, I don't look around the main IGKT website for reference information about knots anyway.
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Dan_Lehman

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Re: Error in Knots Chart
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2010, 08:48:13 PM »
Quote
anybody agree/disagree ?

WOW, members of the organization on knots founded
because of the "invention"/discovery of THiS knot cannot figure it out ?!
Holy smokes, what's going on?
-- "a consultative body" ... !!
Wow.  (And this isn't the only place where SmitHunter(Lehman)'s bend is botched.)
 :o   ???   ::)   :o

No/yes, the diagram is wrong, presuming that the arrows show
tails not SParts -- it is exactly backward (load the arrows).

Surely one needs a better diagram.  And the arrowed ends=>SParts
must extend to remove ambiguity of their continuation (what I think
will be the natural interpretation is right).  The perspective from this
*side* is more problematic than from *top/bottom*; I think
this might come from trying to illustrate some whiz-bang, too-clever=
by-half tying method similar to one originated for Rosendahl's bend
and similarly for Ashley's bend #1452.

Quote
it was this knot which triggered the formation of the Guild and many have a sentimental attachment to it

Yep, it was my first "invention", 1977.

 :)

dmacdd

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Re: Error in Knots Chart
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2010, 12:31:16 AM »
Quote
I have had a go at amending diagram C to what I think it should look like. Anybody agree/disagree?

Barry

This is the correction that makes the sequence of diagrams consistent, in that the knot produced by completing diagram C is in fact the knot shown in diagrams D and E.

But that resultant knot is not 1425A.  Not, in other words, what ABOK currently calls Hunter's bend.

 

anything