Double Dragon vs. Double-tucked Angler

[mchalkley]

What's the consensus on the Double Dragon loop?  Is it really a "new" knot?

Also, I see how it differs from a double-tucked Angler's loop, but I wonder if it would be stronger, more secure or easier to untie.  If you're comparing it to a normal Angler's loop, yes, I can see that, but not if it's tucked twice.  In fact, it seems to me that the load is a little better aligned with the standing line with the Angler's, which should make it stronger.  Any thoughts?

Just curious...

P.S.  After initially posting this, I found the original references to the Double Dragon here a couple pages back, so never mind as to whether it's new or not.  I'm still interested in the questions about strength and security, though.  Maybe even Paul can chime in, since he also mentions the Double-tucked Angler in his original post.

Mark

[roo]

What's the consensus on the Double Dragon loop?  Is it really a "new" knot?

Also, I see how it differs from a double-tucked Angler's loop, but I wonder if it would be stronger, more secure or easier to untie.  If you're comparing it to a normal Angler's loop, yes, I can see that, but not if it's tucked twice.  In fact, it seems to me that the load is a little better aligned with the standing line with the Angler's, which should make it stronger.  Any thoughts?

Just curious...

P.S.  After initially posting this, I found the original references to the Double Dragon here a couple pages back, so never mind as to whether it's new or not.  I'm still interested in the questions about strength and security, though.  Maybe even Paul can chime in, since he also mentions the Double-tucked Angler in his original post.

Mark

An angler's loop, even one in which the final tuck is repeated, is unsuitable for most ropework as it tends to jam.

The double dragon, used as an end loop tends not to jam as I recall, but it does have a significant practical drawback.  Its method of tying is that of an "on the bight" loop, in that you wouldn't (easily) be able to tie the loop around or through an object before closing the loop.  However, you cannot use it on the bight since the loop will jam when the parent line is under tension.

In other words, it's strictly an end loop that doesn't have an easy way of tying like an end loop.

[Dan Lehman]

An angler's loop, even one in which the final tuck is repeated, is unsuitable for most ropework as it tends to jam.

YMMV with material and setting, and use/load, re jamming.
And what is "most ropework"?
I see lots of Overhand loopknots used, among other knots that
aren't expected to be untied, really.

The double dragon, ... does have a significant practical drawback.  Its method of tying is that of an "on the bight" loop, in that you wouldn't be able to tie the loop around or through an object before closing the loop.

ANY knot can be tied with ends, and the Dbl.Dragon is not especially
onerous in this; moreover, like the Bowline and unlike many loopknots,
it can be tied completely after sizing the eye--i.e., w/o any pre-tying
of a component structure.

As for relative strength, to my eye the SPart of the Dbl.D has more
gradual & *padded* bends than that of the Angler's Loopknot.
.:.  I wager the DD is the stronger, and quite strong.

--dl*

[roo]

YMMV with material and setting, and use/load, re jamming.
And what is "most ropework"?
I see lots of Overhand loopknots used, among other knots that
aren't expected to be untied, really.

ANY knot can be tied with ends, and the Dbl.Dragon is not especially
onerous in this; moreover, like the Bowline and unlike many loopknots,
it can be tied completely after sizing the eye--i.e., w/o any pre-tying
of a component structure.

As for relative strength, to my eye the SPart of the Dbl.D has more
gradual & *padded* bends than that of the Angler's Loopknot.
.:.  I wager the DD is the stronger, and quite strong.

--dl*

I see overhand loops, too... mostly in twinework.  

If you have a diagram of an easy and memorable way of tying the double dragon loop with the end of rope, please share.  It doesn't seem to lend itself to such a method.

[mchalkley]

If you have a diagram of an easy and memorable way of tying the double dragon loop with the end of rope, please share.  It doesn't seem to lend itself to such a method.

If you check out http://www.layhands.com/knots/Knots_Hitches.htm and look at knot #8, you'll see a version of the Double Dragon that can pretty easily be tied as a "fixed loop running loop" or a hitch.  I've used it this way to form a running loop for cinching up tight against trees and branches for tree work.  It works quite well.

However, I've also used the double-tucked Angler's Loop in the same fashion, which I find a little quicker to tie, and I haven't noticed any more of a tendency for it to jam than the double dragon.  And that's even when using them with a tractor to pull against them.  I agree that the standard Angler's can be a bear to loosen when pulled that tight, but I haven't found the double-tucked one to be so.

[roo]

If you check out http://www.layhands.com/knots/Knots_Hitches.htm and look at knot #8, you'll see a version of the Double Dragon that can pretty easily be tied as a "fixed loop running loop" or a hitch.  I've used it this way to form a running loop for cinching up tight against trees and branches for tree work.  It works quite well.

However, I've also used the double-tucked Angler's Loop in the same fashion, which I find a little quicker to tie, and I haven't noticed any more of a tendency for it to jam than the double dragon.  And that's even when using them with a tractor to pull against them.  I agree that the standard Angler's can be a bear to loosen when pulled that tight, but I haven't found the double-tucked one to be so.

Boy, I dunno.  That doesn't look like a memorable knot to tie around or through and object before closing the loop.  There are just so many ways to go wrong.   I imagine novices would be even more apprehensive.

As for the twice-tucked Angler loop, I was immediately able to make it jam quite hard in 1/4 inch nylon kernmantle by hand, with the aid of a dowel to pull on while I stood on the other end tied to another dowel.  

It's not always high load by itself that causes jamming, it's high strain.  2000 lbs. on a large rope may not be much of a strain, compared to 200 lbs on a small rope.   Also, I think stretchier rope, like nylon, tends to have a higher propensity for jamming.

[mchalkley]

Boy, I dunno.  That doesn't look like a memorable knot to tie around or through and object before closing the loop.  There are just so many ways to go wrong.   I image novices would be even more apprehensive.

As for the twice-tucked Angler loop, I was immediatedly able to make it jam quite hard in 1/4 inch nylon kernmantle by hand, with the aid of a couple of dowels to pull on while I stood on the other end.  

It's not always high load by itself that causes jamming, it's high strain.  2000 lbs. on a large rope may not be much of a strain, compared to 200 lbs on a small rope.   Also, I think stretchier rope, like nylon, tends to have a higher propensity for jamming.

Interesting.  I agree that strain and load aren't the same, of course.  I was talking about 3/4" double-braid polyester bull rope with a breaking strength of about 20,000 lbs working at about 25% capacity, I'd guess.  Maybe it's the difference between nylon and polyester that creates the jamming issue.

I just took a braid-on-braid 1/4" nylon rope, tied a Double Dragon in one end, a double-tucked Angler in the other, put both on pieces of broom handle, and stood on one while pulling on the other for all I was worth (which isn't much).  In the end, I couldn't tell which was easier to untie - they were both moderately well jammed (or is that moderately badly jammed?).

I also agree that the double dragon isn't as easy to tie a running loop in (when you don't have access to both ends, of course) as many others, but strength is paramount when lives and property are at risk.  So, while I'm interested in easy, I'm more interested in strong and secure.  And I realize that easy has a bearing on strength and security, because the best knot tied incorrectly isn't worth much.

Also, for my purposes, a knot that you can't untie isn't much use, either.

Thus my interest in hearing suggestions from the "knot heads"...

[roo]

Interesting.  I agree that strain and load aren't the same, of course.  I was talking about 3/4" double-braid polyester bull rope with a breaking strength of about 20,000 lbs working at about 25% capacity, I'd guess.  Maybe it's the difference between nylon and polyester that creates the jamming issue.

I just took a braid-on-braid 1/4" nylon rope, tied a Double Dragon in one end, a double-tucked Angler in the other, put both on pieces of broom handle, and stood on one while pulling on the other for all I was worth (which isn't much).  In the end, I couldn't tell which was easier to untie - they were both moderately well jammed (or is that moderately badly jammed?).

I also agree that the double dragon isn't as easy to tie a running loop in (when you don't have access to both ends, of course) as many others, but strength is paramount when lives and property are at risk.  So, while I'm interested in easy, I'm more interested in strong and secure.  And I realize that easy has a bearing on strength and security, because the best knot tied incorrectly isn't worth much.

Also, for my purposes, a knot that you can't untie isn't much use, either.

Thus my interest in hearing suggestions from the "knot heads"...

I don't discount that strength is a good attribute for a knot, but I'll direct you to some words about the issue with another loop knot, so that you don't place too much emphasis on it:

http://notableknotindex.webs.com/figure8loop.html

[Dan Lehman]

Re "strain" vsl "load":  I intended "load relative to tensile" in my words
above, which seems to be what is meant by "strain" for Roo2.
But equal such strains can be different in that while they show a
scaling with rope size, the factor that isn't scaled along with that is
the (would-be, trying-2-B) UNtyer (by which "jammed" is assessed)!
I.e., what might be equally easy for Paul Bunyan (giant) in 3/4" rope to
a normal person's untying 8mm rope, can be quite a challenge,
requiring tools.

But, to this question, I also pointed to setting:  in the case of
the Angler's Loop, one should set the knot (in part) by pulling on the eye
while resisting at the base of the eye against the knot, so as
to force a significant curve into the SPart.  I loaded 3/8 polycombo
laid rope, and 6mm nylon kernmantle with resp. about 600#
& 250#(?--enough to lock the gate on a 'biner):  the former
untied easily from both ends; the latter was ptretty unyielding
at the SPart's nip of the eye legs, but yielded readily at the bends
around the SPart.

www. layhands.com isn't coming up for me at the moment,
but NB that the form of the Dbl.Dragon shown there is the UNSTABLE
form!!  The (more) stable form has the end exiting the opposite
direction, nipped last--and firmly--between the SPart and the end-side
leg of the eye.  In the Dbl. version, one gains security; but
I think I might still prefer the other orientation.

--dl*

[Dan Lehman]

www. layhands.com isn't coming up for me at the moment,
but NB that the form of the Dbl.Dragon shown there is the UNSTABLE
form!!  The (more) stable form has the end exiting the opposite
direction, nipped last--and firmly--between the SPart and the end-side
leg of the eye.  In the Dbl. version, one gains security; but
I think I might still prefer the other orientation.

--dl*

Okay, now I'm connected to the site.  Re what I mean by the more
stable version, in the arrangement shown in the 2nd step image (2nd from left),
the end should cross OVER and wrap around under, etc..;
in finishing, uncross the legs of the eye bight in the knot.

--dl*

[Brian Grimley]

I am so easily confused!  

Re what I mean by the more
stable version, in the arrangement shown in the 2nd step image (2nd from left),
the end should cross OVER and wrap around under, etc..;
in finishing, uncross the legs of the eye bight in the knot.

Dan, are you referring to section 3, fig. 2, of this page http://www.layhands.com/knots/Knots_SingleLoops.htm#DoubleDragon rather than the page http://www.layhands.com/knots/Knots_Hitches.htm in mchalkley's post?

If so, I've got it!  

The new (stable) form of DD, resulting from the change of direction of those turns, removes the concern (perhaps unjustified) that I had with the Double Dragon. Very Neat! Thanx.

Brian.

[mchalkley]

Okay, now I'm connected to the site.  Re what I mean by the more
stable version, in the arrangement shown in the 2nd step image (2nd from left),
the end should cross OVER and wrap around under, etc..;
in finishing, uncross the legs of the eye bight in the knot.

--dl*

Dan - I'm not sure I'm understanding you, either.  But if I am, can the version you're referring to be tied as a running loop or loose hitch without access to both ends?  -- Mark

[roo]

Dan - I'm not sure I'm understanding you, either.  But if I am, can the version you're referring to be tied as a running loop or loose hitch without access to both ends?  -- Mark

To avoid confusion, are you using the terms "running loop" and "hitch" as described on these two pages?:

Running Loop:
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/bowline.html

Hitch:
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/glossary.html

[mchalkley]

To avoid confusion, are you using the terms "running loop" and "hitch" as described on these two pages?:

Running Loop:
http://www.geocities.com/roo_two/bowline.html

Hitch:
http://www.geocities.com/roo_two/glossary.html

With respect to the Running Loop, yes.

With respect to the Hitch, not completely:  Yes, in the sense that it anchors a rope to an object, but no, in the sense that it collapses to take on the shape of the object.  A sliding loop could become a hitch according to this definition, I guess, but a fixed loop never could, unless it were tied tightly enough to start out that way, which would be pretty much impossible, from a practical standpoint, I would think.

So, I guess I should not have used the term hitch, but I wanted to convey the idea that the loop could be made in such a way that it was formed around the object, or the rope itself, in order to form a running loop without access to both ends.

Mark

[Dan Lehman]

Dan - I'm not sure I'm understanding you, either.  But if I am, can the version you're referring to be tied as a running loop or loose hitch without access to both ends?  -- Mark

As Brian catches with "are you referring to section 3,fig. 2, of this page
www.layhands.com/knots/Knots_SingleLoops.htm#DoubleDragon "
that is the reference intended.

One can't tie a single part around any object without access to an end;
as for making a "running loop", well, any loopknot can become that
but simple inversion (making a Larkshead on/over itself)!?

The version I describe can also be tied in the bight.
In "double"d form, the other might be stronger.

--dl*