Poll

If someone is adding 3 Round Turns to a hitch, such as a Buntline, how many degrees of turn are they adding to the hitch?

About 3 x 270 degrees of turn around the object
About 3 x 360 degrees of turn around the object
About 3 x 450 degrees of turn around the object
About 3 x 540 degrees of turn around the object
If someone said "add 3 Round Turns", I would not know what to do because I don't know what that means.
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Author Topic: Poll on adding Round Turns to a Hitch  (Read 14750 times)

knot4u

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Poll on adding Round Turns to a Hitch
« on: January 26, 2011, 08:30:24 AM »
Explain your vote, thanks.

My vote is for 3 x 360 degrees.

ABOK #36 shows a Round Turn that includes about 360 degrees.
ABOK #37 shows a Round Turn plus an Elbow as being about 540 degrees.
ABOK #40 shows a Single Turn as being about 180 degrees.
ABOK #42 shows Two Round Turns that include about 2 x 360 degrees, and there are 180 degrees that are implied.

According to what I've seen, there is only one diagram that is causing this confusion that a Round Turn is 540 degrees (it's not).  The diagram is ABOK #41 (or any diagram mimicking that).  In that diagram, the Round Turn is actually 360 degrees, and there is an implied 180 degrees turn.

In every other instance of a Round Turn, it clearly makes no sense to define a Round Turn as 540 degrees.  As just a few examples, the definition of 540 degrees clearly breaks down for the following:

-Two Round Turns (ABOK #42)
-Three Round Turns, and so on
-ABOK #36
-ABOK #37
« Last Edit: January 27, 2011, 01:11:24 AM by knot4u »

roo

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Re: Poll on adding Round Turns to a Hitch
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2011, 05:37:34 PM »
Quote
Question:    If someone is adding 3 Round Turns to a hitch, such as a Buntline, how many degrees of turn are they adding to the hitch?

The question is poorly worded.  Let's step through the progression of terms to see why:

90 degrees:  Quarter turn.

180 degrees:  Half turn

360 degrees:  Turn


adding 180 degrees to get the turn back to the rope source we get...

540 degrees:  Round Turn


adding a turn, we get to a structure similar to the last in that it makes a round-trip to back to the rope source...

900 degrees:  Two Round Turns

Notice that half of Two Round Turns is not a Round Turn (450 does not equal 540).  We added a turn to get from one round turn to two round turns.  We did not add a round turn to a round turn to get two round turns.

Similarly, we don't add a sheet bend to a sheet bend to get a double sheet bend.

If we keep going we get to...

1260 degrees:  Three Round Turns.

So the answer to the poorly-worded question is that we had to add to the half turn (1260-180)=1080 degrees (3 turns) to arrive at the Three Round Turn structure.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2011, 08:18:35 PM by roo »
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knot4u

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Re: Poll on adding Round Turns to a Hitch
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2011, 05:50:54 PM »
LOL, that's super confusing.  Let's all ignore ABOK and conform to Roo's world.  What happened to your definition of a Round Turn being 540 degrees?  It's like you have to ignore it for everything there to make sense.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2011, 06:45:46 PM by knot4u »

roo

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Re: Poll on adding Round Turns to a Hitch
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2011, 05:52:38 PM »
LOL, that's super confusing.  Let's all ignore ABOK and conform to Roo's world.
Actually, those definitions are in conformance with the Ashley Book of Knots.
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knot4u

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Re: Poll on adding Round Turns to a Hitch
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2011, 05:55:49 PM »
LOL, that's super confusing.  Let's all ignore ABOK and conform to Roo's world.
Actually, those definitions are in conformance with the Ashley Book of Knots.

No, according to references I posted, ABOK does not show a Round Turn as being 540 degrees.  Those ABOK references show a Round Turn as being 360 degrees.

roo

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Re: Poll on adding Round Turns to a Hitch
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2011, 06:01:00 PM »
LOL, that's super confusing.  Let's all ignore ABOK and conform to Roo's world.
Actually, those definitions are in conformance with the Ashley Book of Knots.

No, according to references I posted, ABOK does not show a Round Turn as being 540 degrees.  Those ABOK references show a Round Turn as being 360 degrees.
Attached is the Round Turn and Two Round Turns from the Ashley Book of Knots:
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knot4u

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Re: Poll on adding Round Turns to a Hitch
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2011, 06:14:28 PM »
LOL, that's super confusing.  Let's all ignore ABOK and conform to Roo's world.
Actually, those definitions are in conformance with the Ashley Book of Knots.

No, according to references I posted, ABOK does not show a Round Turn as being 540 degrees.  Those ABOK references show a Round Turn as being 360 degrees.
Attached is the Round Turn and Two Round Turns from the Ashley Book of Knots:


Round Turn (ABOK #41) and Two Round Turns (ABOK #42)


Single Turn (ABOK#40)

As I said above, ABOK #42 shows Two Round Turns to be about 2 x 360 degrees, and there is an implied 180 degrees that's not part of the Two Round Turns.  ABOK #41 shows one Round Turn as including 360 degrees, and there is an implied turn of 180 degrees.

Note again that ABOK #40 shows a single turn as being about 180 degrees.  It appears that some people here may be using a different definition of a turn.

If you erroneously say one Round Turn includes 540 degrees and that Two Round Turns includes 2 x 540 degrees (it doesn't), then you are left with something that is different than ABOK #42.  That's because a Round Turn is not 540 degrees.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2011, 06:26:08 PM by knot4u »

roo

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Re: Poll on adding Round Turns to a Hitch
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2011, 06:25:53 PM »
As I said above, ABOK #42 shows Two Round Turns to be about 2 x 360 degrees with an implied 180 degrees.
So you're admitting that Two Round Turns is 900?
Quote
Note again that ABOK #40 shows a single turn as being about 180 degrees.  It appears that some people here may be using a different definition of a turn.
I could also see complete encirclement of 360 degrees, depending on how tight or loose the rope is around the non-pictured spar.  Again, if you find this diagram unclear, why not defer to the dictionary definition of a turn being 360 degrees?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/turn

TURN

81.
a passing or twisting of one thing around another, as of a rope around a mast.

83.
a single circular or convoluted shape, as of a coiled or wound rope.


Quote
If you say one Round Turn includes 540 degrees.
But that does seem to be what Ashley is communicating in #41 and it is consistent with other sources:
http://www.66thlondon.org/knots.html

Quote
and that Two Round Turns includes 2 x 540 degrees
I didn't say that.  I specifically rejected that faulty reasoning:
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2797.msg16509#msg16509

« Last Edit: January 26, 2011, 08:20:49 PM by roo »
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knot4u

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Re: Poll on adding Round Turns to a Hitch
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2011, 06:32:33 PM »
As I said above, ABOK #42 shows Two Round Turns to be about 2 x 360 degrees with an implied 180 degrees.
So you're admitting that Two Round Turns is 900?

Two Round Turns include 2 x 360 degrees, and there are implied 180 degrees that are not part of the Two Round Turns.  Likewise, a Buntline has an implied 180 degrees.  How many times do I have to say that?

With your definition of Round Turn being 540 degrees, you have to make up a new definition to make sense out of ABOK #36 and ABOK #37.  It's completely ridiculous.  It's like you're trying to make this into hard Chemistry or something.

Ugh, patience is a virtue.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2011, 07:55:32 PM by knot4u »

roo

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Re: Poll on adding Round Turns to a Hitch
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2011, 06:39:11 PM »
With your definition of Round Turn being 540 degrees, you have to make up a new definition to make sense out of ABOK #36 and ABOK #37.  It's completely ridiculous.
You've deliberately ignored my previous discussion of this:
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=710.msg16507#msg16507

Turn and Round Turn from the Complete Book of Sailing Knots by Geoffrey Budworth:
« Last Edit: January 26, 2011, 06:49:01 PM by roo »
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knot4u

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Re: Poll on adding Round Turns to a Hitch
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2011, 07:05:28 PM »
With your definition of Round Turn being 540 degrees, you have to make up a new definition to make sense out of ABOK #36 and ABOK #37.  It's completely ridiculous.
You've deliberately ignored my previous discussion of this:
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=710.msg16507#msg16507

In order to be consistent with ABOK, you're saying that a Round Turn equals 360 degrees in certain contexts and equals 540 degrees in other contexts.  You've created an unnecessary layer of complexity simply because you're unwilling to concede that a Round Turn does NOT equal 540 degrees.  It's completely bogus.

I'm saying that a Round Turn includes 360, period.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2011, 07:56:12 PM by knot4u »

roo

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Re: Poll on adding Round Turns to a Hitch
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2011, 07:06:44 PM »
you're saying that a Round Turn equals 360 in certain contexts.  It's entirely bogus.  I'm saying that a Round Turn includes 360, period.
???
I've never said that a Round Turn equals 360 degrees around the spar.
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knot4u

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Re: Poll on adding Round Turns to a Hitch
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2011, 07:09:44 PM »
you're saying that a Round Turn equals 360 in certain contexts.  It's entirely bogus.  I'm saying that a Round Turn includes 360, period.
???
I've never said that a Round Turn equals 360 degrees around the spar.

You're saying that a Round Turn equals 360 degrees in ABOK #36, as it does.

You're talking out of both sides of your mouth, dude.

SS369

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Re: Poll on adding Round Turns to a Hitch
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2011, 07:45:59 PM »
Here are two pictures to give aid to any member following this poll.
Count for yourselves the number of degrees these Formed and Named examples show.

Hope this helps.

SS

roo

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Re: Poll on adding Round Turns to a Hitch
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2011, 08:03:44 PM »
you're saying that a Round Turn equals 360 in certain contexts.  It's entirely bogus.  I'm saying that a Round Turn includes 360, period.
???
I've never said that a Round Turn equals 360 degrees around the spar.

You're saying that a Round Turn equals 360 degrees in ABOK #36, as it does.

You're talking out of both sides of your mouth, dude.
I reject this claim.  Produce a direct quote from me.
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