Author Topic: Timber Hitch Variants  (Read 5565 times)

roo

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1918
    • The Notable Knot Index
Timber Hitch Variants
« on: February 24, 2011, 06:16:38 PM »
The simplicity and reliability of the Timber Hitch is quite attractive for many uses.  That simplicity allows it to be expanded upon without too much difficulty.  For example, I find myself quite often tying the intuitive though chunky Timber Hitch on the Bight:




But this theme can be expanded upon further to produce a Tumbling Timber Hitch that approximates many of the features of a Tumble Hitch:


« Last Edit: March 27, 2012, 05:26:59 PM by roo »
If you wish to add a troll to your ignore list, click "Profile" then "Buddies/Ignore List".

Notable Knot Index

xarax

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2781
Re: Timber Hitch Variants
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2011, 05:32:30 PM »
   All the possible hitches that can be tied when we do not have access to the ends of the rope or of the pole, should not be too many to enumerate exhaustively, I guess. Perhaps the simplest of them all is a simple double line noose, as shown in the attached picture. When, after we have tied this naive hitch, we pull the free bight to tighten the knot s nub further, we can achieve a satisfactory temporary hitch. It is much simpler and less bulky, of course, than the hitches shown in this thread, but I do not know how safe it is with different materials. With my 9-11 mm climbing kernmantle ropes, and moderate loads, if it is properly tightened by the pulling of the free bight, it holds surprisingly well. For a more complex and stronger version, we can tie a double eight in place of the simple overhand, as shown in the second and third pictures. The point is that, again, we have the free bight in a suitable orientation, so we can pull it towards us and tighten the knot s knub even further. ( The bight shown in pictures is left small there, for presentation purposes only. I leave it large enough, so I can use it as a firm handle, to pull and tighten the whole hitch.)
  
« Last Edit: February 25, 2011, 06:24:14 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

roo

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1918
    • The Notable Knot Index
Re: Timber Hitch Variants
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2011, 06:16:35 PM »
we can achieve a satisfactory temporary hitch.
With some massaging, I think I can make out the basic Halter Hitch geometry there.  After some hard pull, I find the hitch variation pictured a bit difficult to untie.  
« Last Edit: February 25, 2011, 06:17:51 PM by roo »
If you wish to add a troll to your ignore list, click "Profile" then "Buddies/Ignore List".

Notable Knot Index

Dan_Lehman

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4178
Re: Timber Hitch Variants
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2011, 07:23:17 PM »
  All the possible hitches that can be tied when we do not have access to the ends of the rope or of the pole, should not be too many to enumerate exhaustively, I guess.

Then you must guess that is true for all hitches,
as surely you can tie anything done with ends by using
a bight qua end --and getting the doubled bulk.  There
are also ways to work partly *ignoring* one side of the
doubled-rope/bight as much as possible, leaving it slack
until a final tuck or two (e.g., tying a taut-line noose-hitch
(adjustable eye)).

Quote
Perhaps the simplest of them all is a simple double line noose, ...

Each of what you present I would classify as "noose-hitches",
as the knotting is done not around the object but around
the S.Part of the overall structure --a clove-hitch noose, an
overhand-hitch noose, and so on.


As for the timber hitch's reliability, there have been bothersome
anecdotes from arborists about this hitch pulling out in I think
cases of dropping loads onto blocks tied on by it; and the advice
is to make several dogged tucks, maybe to use a stopper knot
(or another hitch, if one's block lanyard is coming up short on
a large diameter --hmmm, that leaves only a running bowline ?).

Many sources (mis-)present the timber hitch in most unrealistic
form : they show all the dogging as close wraps --vs. spread-out
twists-- near the turn of the tail; these could easily pull out,
devoid of (sufficient) contact against the object.  I don't think
that this was an issue with the arborist anecdotal cases, or at
least not one, where the tyer was at least this savvy of workings.

I still am waiting to see some testing of the timber hitch with a
roundturn on the S.Part (or two), to see what effect that might
have on strength; it should be a bonus for slack-security, anyway
(staying in place).  (This is in Ashley's BoK, btw.)

Incidentally, Roo's image reminds me of the "Killick/Killeg/K..."
hitch, which is variously shown as a timber hitch and half-hitch
close together or spaced broadly, and said to be used for tying
to anchor stones (or towing lumber).  The spaced version does
the towing task pretty well & obviously : the timber hitch anchors
the line, and the half-hitch *guards* the former from undue load
AND puts a directional, contact point of the line forward on the
object.  But for the anchor stone, all that makes sense to me is
that in fact we have one *knot*, and that is a cow hitch with
its tail dogged for security; in natural-fiber ropes, I think that
this will jam nicely at the collar and make a good lock on the
object; nylon might work well, too, with its water-shrinkage
tightening.  And that "K..." name belongs to this >>hitch<<.


--dl*
====

xarax

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2781
Re: Timber Hitch Variants
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2011, 10:44:00 PM »
  All the possible hitches that can be tied when we do not have access to the ends of the rope or of the pole, should not be too many to enumerate exhaustively, I guess.
Then you must guess that is true for all hitches, as surely you can tie anything done with ends by using a bight qua end --and getting the doubled bulk. There are also ways to work partly *ignoring* one side of the doubled-rope/bight as much as possible, leaving it slack until a final tuck or two...

  No, and yes.
  No, if we tie all the known -and unknown- hitches with a double line, the number of possible OTB hitches would be of a much greater order of magnitude. Those hitches would be too many to enumerate exhaustively ! And there is no point in doing this, because most of them would probably be much bulkier and less practical than the simpler noose-hitches.
  Yes, we can even use the one or the other of the two lines alternatively, ignoring its pair, to tie parts of the hitch, and only at the very end we can secure the final free bight. I have tried this strategy, and very soon I was lost in the innumerable plethora of possibilities ! I had not discovered anything worth the additional complexity up to this point, though. I really do not know, perhaps I had missed some variations, it is not difficult to miss some, not at all !  

Each of what you present I would classify as "noose-hitches", as the knotting is done not around the object but around the S.Part of the overall structure

  Right. I have also tied many different hitches, like those proposed by roo, where we try to utilize the added friction, induced by the compression of the rope strands on the surface of pole, by the action of (over-) riding turns. I have not found anything worth the additional complexity, anything with a noticeable greater holding power than the noose-hitches. Perhaps the compression that the pole itself, as a solid body, exerts on the adjacent knot s nub, be it a simple (double line) overhand or double eight knot, improves the anti-slippage quality of the "naked" double line noose.    

« Last Edit: February 25, 2011, 10:45:01 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

 

anything