Author Topic: series of loops: which knot to use?  (Read 7853 times)

quahog

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series of loops: which knot to use?
« on: February 10, 2013, 03:58:59 AM »
Question:  If you want to tie a series or loops around objects, which loop knot would you use?

Hypothetical example:  Lets say you're trying to hang a shower curtain with a line (stretched out tight), and you want a loop through each eye of the curtain.  Which series of loop knots would you tie?

Here's my suggestion, an in-line zeppelin.



To tie my in-line zeppelin loop, I use the first method here:
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/zeppelinloop.html
but, after the first overhand knot (the second half of the tie) I go the opposite direction so that my working end comes out parallel to the other working end (instead of out perpendicular through the double loop, as is the case for a zeppelin end-of-line loop).







Thoughts?

X1

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Re: series of loops: which knot to use?
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2013, 04:21:13 AM »
  I believe that this is a balanced, symmetric, beautiful solution... and a knot that deserves to be called " Zeppelin loop ", indeed... because the other ugly "thing" you had mentioned, does not !
  ( Alan Lee has tied and presented, in this Forum, some other loops, inspired by the Zeppelin bend.)
  Now you have tied it and enjoyed, I suggest that you better not tie it again, on a line with many loops !  :) Any TIB loop would be much easier to tie, and I suppose that, even if it will not be so beautiful, it will do this job - behind the cutains ... :)
« Last Edit: February 10, 2013, 04:29:40 AM by X1 »

roo

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Re: series of loops: which knot to use?
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2013, 06:02:27 AM »
  I believe that this is a balanced, symmetric, beautiful solution... and a knot that deserves to be called " Zeppelin loop ",
You overlook function.  That version of the knot becomes jammed when seriously ring loaded. 
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roo

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Re: series of loops: which knot to use?
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2013, 06:08:41 AM »
Question:  If you want to tie a series or loops around objects, which loop knot would you use?

Hypothetical example:  Lets say you're trying to hang a shower curtain with a line (stretched out tight), and you want a loop through each eye of the curtain.  Which series of loop knots would you tie?

I'm a little unclear on what the objective is.  Most shower curtains are slid open and shut.  It makes me wonder why you need fixed loops rather than just a straight line.

Perhaps you could think of a different example the embodies what you're envisioning.
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X1

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Re: series of loops: which knot to use?
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2013, 07:03:40 AM »
You overlook function.  That version of the knot becomes jammed when seriously ring loaded.

   If the victim will try to stand on her feet by pulling those curtains, while she is being stabbed, then yes, we will have a crime scene with jammed Zeppelin loops all over the place - but I believe that would be the last thing the audience would pay attention to !  :) Moreover, I think that the excessive humidity in the air of the bathroom (that every director who respects his job would demand ) will work like a lubricating agent, and would allow an easier untying of those jammed knots.
   What is the real problem is that, when the tails of this Zeppelin loop will be loaded, they will both point downwards - so the perfect symmetry of the Zeppelin knot would be destroyed. The tails of the Zeppelin bend are pointing to opposite directions, so when they will be forced to point to the same direction the knot s nub would be deformed - and the symmetry shown at the last picture would be lost...   
« Last Edit: February 10, 2013, 07:06:43 AM by X1 »

quahog

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Re: series of loops: which knot to use?
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2013, 07:18:15 AM »
Hmm, it does indeed become quite jammed.  Zeppelin scratched.

Sorry, curtain was a bad example.  How about a privacy screen that has a series of eyes in the top and you hang it vertically.

So, what would be a good knot?  How about bowlines in series?


roo

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Re: series of loops: which knot to use?
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2013, 08:38:49 AM »
Hmm, it does indeed become quite jammed.  Zeppelin scratched.

Sorry, curtain was a bad example.  How about a privacy screen that has a series of eyes in the top and you hang it vertically.

So, what would be a good knot?  How about bowlines in series?

If the use is not too demanding general utility, just about any loop would do.  In more demanding conditions a Butterfly Loop does pretty well when its four parts are loaded in various combinations, but it would very cumbersome to tie with the end of a line rather than on-the-bight, if that's what you have in mind.
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TMCD

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Re: series of loops: which knot to use?
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2013, 05:03:47 PM »
ABOK 1045 is a good choice here, sorry I have no pics or diagrams.

knot4u

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Re: series of loops: which knot to use?
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2013, 06:20:17 PM »
I'm about certain I'd use a bight loop for the mentioned application and for any other applications I can imagine.  The Butterfly is the first loop that comes to mind if the load on the loop is mostly perpendicular to the directions of the ends.  If the load on the loop is mostly parallel to the directions of the ends, then I'd try the Span (e.g., Trucker Hitch, step ladder, etc.).

I see mostly disadvantages for using an end loop.  Can anyone describe any advantage?  I'm confused.  If there were no viable candidates for a bight loop in the universe of all knots, then there might be a slim chance I'd try an end loop, grudgingly.  Basically, it's not going to happen.

X1

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Re: series of loops: which knot to use?
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2013, 07:16:01 PM »
if the load on the loop is mostly perpendicular to the directions of the ends....
 If the load on the loop is mostly parallel to the directions of the ends....

   In the general case, we have also to examine if the loop is going to be ring-loaded or not, as roo had mentioned. That is, we should also consider the angle between the legs of the loaded loop. Some loops will be deformed, and possibly weaken, if they will be ring-loaded.

quahog

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Re: series of loops: which knot to use?
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2013, 02:48:26 PM »
Something easily tied that requires passing the WE through an eye/ring would be ideal.  I took a few minutes and now I've learned how to tie the butterfly without using only the bight.  I think this is the ideal knot for this purpose.  Also, my string of bowlines (as posted above) also works nicely.

X1

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Re: series of loops: which knot to use?
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2013, 05:35:23 PM »
I took a few minutes, and now I've learned how to tie the butterfly

   There are always two options : Either you wish to solve only a particular practical problem, or you wish to learn about knots. In the first case, the most easy and quick solution would be a visit to the local hardware store. There are plenty of cheap, plastic fasteners out there, for everything that moves under the sun ! The second option may require more than a few minutes, I am afraid. There are dozens of known single and double loops, and dozens of unknown ones, that are just around the corner, waiting to be revealed. For example, any bend can generate a double TIB loop, if we tie it with a double line, and connect the two lines of the double tail of each link together, and one standing end of the one link with one standing end of the other link. We have more than 200 bends, so we can have more than 200 double loops, only by using this simple trick... Millions and millions of seconds !  :)

knot4u

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Re: series of loops: which knot to use?
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2013, 12:00:45 AM »
Something easily tied that requires passing the WE through an eye/ring would be ideal.  I took a few minutes and now I've learned how to tie the butterfly without using only the bight.  I think this is the ideal knot for this purpose.  Also, my string of bowlines (as posted above) also works nicely.

I now have a better image of your problem.  However, I respectfully suggest you look for eyes/rings that can be attached to your loops, as opposed to the other way around.  Working with end loops seems to be too cumbersome.  In contrast, working with bight loops enables more flexibility, and finding suitable eyes/rings shouldn't be that difficult.  That is if you even need the eyes/rings at all.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2013, 03:22:46 AM by knot4u »

X1

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Re: series of loops: which knot to use?
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2013, 01:18:16 AM »
I respectfully suggest you look for eyes/rings that can be attached to your loops, as opposed to the other way around.  Working with end loops seems to be too cumbersome.  In contrast, working with bight loops enables more flexibility, and finding suitable eyes/rings shouldn't be that difficult.  That is if you even need the eyes/rings at all.

   Perhaps the method described in (1), that produces many fig.8 or overhand loops tied on a single line, can offer another solution : one can penetrate all those loops by a horizontal main line, and have his eyes/rings ready to slide along it.

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4252.0

SS369

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Re: series of loops: which knot to use?
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2013, 01:21:01 AM »
Since the loops will not move as shower rings will upon a rope I don't see the necessity to tie loops by threading the working end through each eyelet or grommet.
Perhaps loops tied With a bight will suffice, but then why a loop at all?

Maybe a series of clove hitches, girth/cow hitches at each grommet if one wants to weave.

I would consider pushing a bight through the opening and tying a stopper knot of choice with the bundle that has been pushed through. It could be just a simple overhand if it is bulky enough to withstand pulling back through the curtain's openings.

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