Because I believe that language should work --and
should be carefully used &
minded to hone it to
work well--, I will show how it ought to have worked
here. There are, after all, a great many things for
which one cannot explain & resolve with images;
if we become so inept with language, what then?
I regard my above --and here further explained--
suggestion as simply like that of advising one to
use a
butterfly knot in a
trucker's hitch (to which
advice "show my an image" should seem peculiar!).
So, below is the sort of "help" I sought in getting
understanding of where my words failed.
But what I would see as a composite knot is something
such as tying an Eskimo bowline and then feeding its tail away
into a bowline < First Confusion : Tying an Eskimo bowline
and the feeding its tail away and into a bowline?
--nicely "PET", you see-- ( an unnecessary ditty added
and it distracts from the point you may have been making)
As I sensed, there was an issue on the sense of "into",
which I addressed in a reply. No, it's not the sense of
going to some extant other knot which somehow just
awaits its use, but in the sense of
"take this rope and
tie it into a (round) sling" (where one should know just
what to do, and it wouldn't be looking for some sling
to tie "into", but working entirely with the given rope!).
To say that my "PET" note distracted is to be surprisingly
resistant to what should've been its help : that the
intended 2nd knot (which does not pre-exist, but will
be tied now) can be tied without prior formation of
some part of it is a nice convenience. And noting
this point should serve as a clue, not distraction.
Consider that Ashley, e.g., presents a bowline on a bight
tied off with a bowlilne --which knots could be formed
in either order.
Again, yes, consider Ashley's #1075 as a model, where its
tail is then taken and tied into a
bowline (#1010) :
this is the same thing I'm describing. (Also note
that these components of #1075 can be formed
in the reverse order --
bowline first, and then the
bowline on a bight tied in its eye (anticipated by
having a large eye).)
... and then perhaps reeving the tail back through the first knot of this
now composite knot (and back through the 2nd knot,
( 2 knots, not composite to my use of the terminology)
giving it a 3rd diameter).
And here we see the problem : my words are attempted
to be forced into a narrow sense of "composite". And this
has frustrated comprehension, whereas one could've seen
their intended sense
and then remarked that that result
didn't meet the OP's intent for
composite. (And then
we engage a philosophical deliberation about that.)
(Hmmm, is it only "now"
because of the tail's reeving from one to other,
and not by virtue of the first-formed being essentially
in the eye of the other?
No clue as to what you mean.
Seems like a statement that ends with a question mark.
Which it is, which points to my meaning : I'm questioning
what constitutes
compositeness --is it the proximity and
joint action of two recognizably distinct components of the
structure, or need there be some further entanglement
of them? There is a case to make that our perception
can lead to inconsistent conclusions : Ashley's simple,
effective (at low loads, anyway) eye structure #160 can
be seen in the old
water bowline images (#1012),
though something so brief as an end through a nipping
turn might seem less "knot" than "part"!
And my suggested composite knot comes
to resemble much the so-called "mirrored bowline",
although that knot works on a single base of a larkshead
--or is that a "composite" of mirrored turNips?!!)
It seems you are being facetious here but it could be semantically composite.
No, I'm pointing to the difficult conceptual issue
of figuring what is
composite --that where I'd
thought of the cited *knot* as a single entity
(albeit somewhat complex), perhaps it could be
seen instead as more two-knots-like, and "composite"!?
(In any case, like the above-suggested entanglement,
the result is much a sort of jointly bound, back-to-back
(or front-to-back ...) adjacency of bowlinesque tangles,
with a common attribute of being resistant to loosening
even though relatively loosely tied to begin with.)
In the above post it seems to me that you are talking about
tying two complete knots to form a double knotted structure,
not a composite comprisedcomposed of parts (components).
This simple reply would've done much to further the
discussion. Yes, indeed that is my suggestion, up
to the point about then reeving the tail of the away
one (2nd-formed, as I presented it) through the nub
of the 1st one, and back through the other --which
binds the recognizably distinct knots further. (And
note that the loading of the eye-proximate one will
differ from what it would be were that knot alone
--all four of its exiting parts bear load (six parts after
the tail-reeving!), not the usual three of an eye knot.)
And so on.
NB: My suggested composite/compound/confound...
knot also reveals a recipe for like formations, using
various components --such as *guarding* the
fig.8eye knot with a
bowline, even, with the tail-reeving
and all-strands loading gaining easy-enough untying
of the former.
I set out on this design with the thought that should
the "guard" knot come untied, there would be this
back-up / base knot yet to save the day;
but it seemed hard to explain how the rather-engaged
guard could come untied --being so well entangled--,
and, if so, how it could do so and the base knot NOT
also be dangerously loosened,
...
and so now I see the benefit not so much as having
a fall-back but simply in having such a complexity
of *knotting* that loosening just won't occur.
(A
bowline (=#1010) can loosen in kernmantle ropes,
as both sides of the nipping loop can come back into it,
and the finishing, collaring bight isn't a binding structure
so much as a form-stabilzing one;
but with all the back'n'forth reeving advised above,
and also in e.g., the
mirrored bowline, only the
SPart can feed back into the knotted mass, the other
side of the nipping loop will be further engaged and
not available to facilitate loosening.)
[at the risk of depleting X.'s stock ... >>>]
--dl*
====
postscript ::
The
OED reportedly just gave up the defence against
the vogue (ab)use of "literally" as a (lame) emphatic.
Some see that as language growing; I see it as the
death or at least severe weakening of language in
this case --a word that now must rely on context
or even some presumed meaning, rather than its
conveyance of meaning immediately. (And similarly
"comprise", "compose", "include" have nicely given
complementary definitions that can enable precision,
which senses I believe are worth preserving. (I think
that somewhere along the t.v. era announcers got
to fancy the sound of "comprise" no matter ... .)