Author Topic: What if Clifford Ashley had been into Scouting instead of Whaling?  (Read 46071 times)

Dan_Lehman

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Re: What if Clifford Ashley had been into Scouting instead of Whaling?
« Reply #30 on: July 20, 2009, 06:03:15 AM »
Voici some more Bwls, showing the strong draw of the Common Bwl's tail
away from being "in the loop=>eye"; so much so that I don't think you'll
find it in the eye except as newly tied or if seized, and the latter pretty much
eliminates the stated concerns about that placement, making the end in
essence a part of one eye leg.

1st:  "Old Yeller", my thumb is on the draw-back-by-loading end, common Bwl.
   (I don't think that this rope will see further use, except for decoration?)

2nd: Here, in a crusty mooring line of poly-combo, again one sees the hard
 forced draw of the S.Part on the end, pulling it up to stick out at a right angle.

3rd:  Capsized Bwl in 8 twin-strand CoEx-fibre braid.

4th:  No capsizing here -- end's pulled back from the start & tape-seized to the S.Part,
 and seems to even be the shorter path to the knot (i.e., will take load first!) !?
(Btw, that slinkly green(PP)-black(PP)-white(PES?PA) line is lead-line:  it has a
string of cylindrical small lead weights as its core (but seems knottable nonetheless).)

--dl*
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J.Knoop

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Re: What if Clifford Ashley had been into Scouting instead of Whaling?
« Reply #31 on: July 20, 2009, 07:30:20 AM »
As for the Hsu Kuok Ping books, try Dymocks when you are in Hong Kong. They stock several Chinese/Taiwanese (urban) knotbooks. There's another Chinese bookshop I like, on Hong Kong Island, but its name eludes me right now. It's 2 minutes walk from the Wan Chai subway station. They had a series of knotbooks on decorative knotting, spanning something like 100-150 parts. I did not buy any of the collection and did not bother to record the details, as it was all Chinese, way beyond my sphere of interest and certainly overweight flying back. Should the bookshop's name pop up, I will post it. One thing is illustrated by Ping & Co; the immense populations of Asian cities like, Beijing, Taipeh, Hong Kong, Shanghai give rise to a different kind of knotting; urban knotting. Ordinary people need to know how to lash a load to the roof of their car, how to secure a tarpaulin, fasten bush-branches, etc etc, all things which involve cordage of some kind, but no boat. In a sense very much what must have happened in Medieval Europe when they decided to go build cathedrals.

Great, naeh impressive (!), images of the Japanese bamboo scaffolding, BambooFenceKnot! Images of tallship rigging pale aside this kind of industrial knotting. One of the impressive things about Hong Kong is their bamboo scaffolding. You can spot it already flying into Lan Tau Island. No knotter can resist taking a closer look at how the "knots" are made, but entering the construction sites is a different story. They bluntly kick you off! The other Chinese cities I visited also have lashed bamboo scaffolding, but somehow less impressive than the HK really high rise. BTW the IGKT library has a small study by Ken Yalden on HK scaffolding, perhaps you can borrow it, or get copies from them?

Japan and knots, :), my weak spot. Are you there right now? I guess you have had a peek at Fujiwara's work - The Japan Encyclopedia of Knots? IMHO that's what knots is all about. Too bad his boat count exceeds unity, but his rural knotting more than compensates. You know that George Russel Shaw in 1924, who is listed in ABOK's bibliography, started his knot study by looking at Japanese knotting? He sent Cyrus Lawrence Day on that tangent, but sadly its details never got worked out very well. There is an elusive 1840 (or so) source document on Japanese ceremonial knotting in a Boston Museum, which George Shaw and Cyrus Day were allowed to read, and I wish would become accessible for the knotworld to study. Alas!



J.Knoop

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Re: What if Clifford Ashley had been into Scouting instead of Whaling?
« Reply #32 on: July 20, 2009, 08:05:28 AM »
Dan Lehman wrote:

Quote
As for this "Dutch Navy" stuff, that seems to be a myth devoid of reality.

Typical sailor stuff, Dan. Their gorey lorey nonsense seldom makes it past the stage of being "myth devoid of reality". Do you know wherefrom Pieter van de Griend got that info? He usually references his sources. In a sequel to Survival of the Simplest he had some Dutch article on Bowlines, perhaps that will provide us with the details you seek? Let me check this out in a later post. 

I note that you are refering to the "Cowboy Bowline" losing out to the "Common Bowline". Do you know of any source to solidify the "fact that Cowboys do not use Bowlines proper"? Or is that Myth Devoid Of Reality once again/too? Perhaps it would be better to have a seperate thread for that Bowline subject, as we are having this jolly discussion about the impact on the knot world of the hypothesis what if Clifford Ashley had been a scout instead of a whalerman - and it's moi who is moderating this thread, right?


Joop Knoop.





J.Knoop

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Re: What if Clifford Ashley had been into Scouting instead of Whaling?
« Reply #33 on: July 21, 2009, 10:35:16 AM »
The Hong Kong bookshop, whose name eluded me yesterday is: Cosmos Books Ltd in Johnson Road.

J.Knoop

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Re: What if Clifford Ashley had been into Scouting instead of Whaling?
« Reply #34 on: July 21, 2009, 08:58:29 PM »
BambooFenceKnot wrote:

Quote
I had been wondering while writing in the Japanese Fence Knot thread if there weren't a lot of land knots being missed with this focus on ships and ABOK.


Indeed. To that extent it is interesting to read, the ever controversial, Marcell Grialle's paper on Abyssinian knots (1933). If there ever was a batch of weird knots, then they certainly were collected by Griaulle's knotmen. Another thought-provoking source is Franz Boas book about the Eskimo's of Baffin Land. While at it try and find the papers by for example Gandz, Paul Wolters, Isidor Scheftelowitz, Lindblom and Mancke, Ulrike Zischka,.............. nothing about boats and completely ABOK-free. So, in short the answer to your question is affirmative.

BambooFenceKnot

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Re: What if Clifford Ashley had been into Scouting instead of Whaling?
« Reply #35 on: July 22, 2009, 04:54:06 AM »
One thing is illustrated by Ping & Co; the immense populations of Asian cities like, Beijing, Taipeh, Hong Kong, Shanghai give rise to a different kind of knotting; urban knotting. Ordinary people need to know how to lash a load to the roof of their car, how to secure a tarpaulin, fasten bush-branches, etc etc, all things which involve cordage of some kind, but no boat. In a sense very much what must have happened in Medieval Europe when they decided to go build cathedrals.

I worked on construction sites with plumbers in the USA but never had to learn a knot. The trucks were tied down with rubber 'bungie' cords that had hooks on either end....  Later they showed me the clove's hitch taught to apprentices..

Great, naeh impressive (!), images of the Japanese bamboo scaffolding, BambooFenceKnot!

Sorry for causing the misunderstanding. The picture is from an English magazine on Hong Kong's bamboo scaffolding. I'm not aware of bamboo scaffolding in Japan...

One of the impressive things about Hong Kong is their bamboo scaffolding. You can spot it already flying into Lan Tau Island. No knotter can resist taking a closer look at how the "knots" are made, but entering the construction sites is a different story. They bluntly kick you off! The other Chinese cities I visited also have lashed bamboo scaffolding, but somehow less impressive than the HK really high rise. BTW the IGKT library has a small study by Ken Yalden on HK scaffolding, perhaps you can borrow it, or get copies from them?

  I'm looking forward to following up on your sources and suggestions.

Japan and knots, :), my weak spot. Are you there right now? I guess you have had a peek at Fujiwara's work - The Japan Encyclopedia of Knots? IMHO that's what knots is all about. Too bad his boat count exceeds unity, but his rural knotting more than compensates. You know that George Russel Shaw in 1924, who is listed in ABOK's bibliography, started his knot study by looking at Japanese knotting? He sent Cyrus Lawrence Day on that tangent, but sadly its details never got worked out very well. There is an elusive 1840 (or so) source document on Japanese ceremonial knotting in a Boston Museum, which George Shaw and Cyrus Day were allowed to read, and I wish would become accessible for the knotworld to study. Alas!

  Yes, I live in Japan, in the south of southern Kyushu. I should make sure I don't miss the public classes on knotting at the local Mariner's High School this year. A grandfather I met at our nursery school had a decorative lanyard(?) on his cell phone from that class. Other than the decorative fences and sapling support ropes tied with the Otoko(Man) Knot I haven't yet encountered many knots. I'm glad to be developing the eyes for it though.
 Thanks again,
« Last Edit: July 22, 2009, 04:57:32 AM by BambooFenceKnot »

J.Knoop

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Re: What if Clifford Ashley had been into Scouting instead of Whaling?
« Reply #36 on: July 22, 2009, 07:29:55 AM »
BambooFenceKnot: once you start playing the game SpotTheKnot, you will find them everywhere; I wish you every success in your encounters. Keep us all updated of your finds.

In the lineman Rider's thread (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?PHPSESSID=09aa67108612a9e1a00a6c1956ff7397&topic=1402.msg9629#msg9629) dfred wrote:

Quote
I followed a thread like this to the 1931 Finnish scouting knot manual, Solmukirja, which is cited as the first illustration of the Constrictor.   It led me to an interesting and surprisingly extensive early knot book.  If only I could read suomi...

There are several very interesting early scouting monographs, detailing more about knots than any contemporary sailor knot monograph. For example, Cyrus Day's Sailor's Knots was not published till 1935, but before then there were: Marrta Ropponen's Solmukirja (1931), which is a scouting knot monograph. Another interesting scouting knot monograph is Axel Saugman's Tovvaerksarbejder (1926). Neither of them are listed in ABOK, but CLD did list them.

Interesting is how Ropponen illustrates the Constrictor Knot (as we would call it nowadays) and rapes the Capstan, making it a "Vuorokkisolmu". With other words she experimented with knots and their transformations. Is that a scout thingey, or an intrinsic part of the knot-parcel? How come scouts lost their knot-lead around 1935?
(See if we can get this derailed thread back onto track.... :) ).

Joop Knoop.

Dan_Lehman

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Re: What if Clifford Ashley had been into Scouting instead of Whaling?
« Reply #37 on: July 22, 2009, 01:11:16 PM »
With other words she experimented with knots and their transformations.

And yet presented Hasluck's nonsense version of the Wot?knot without a qualm?
That is interesting!   :o

--dl*
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J.Knoop

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Re: What if Clifford Ashley had been into Scouting instead of Whaling?
« Reply #38 on: July 22, 2009, 03:25:07 PM »
So, what is your point, Dan? We need some introspection to ensure that non-sailing knotauthors are exempted from publishing "nonsense"? Hasluck was a non-mariner, but I think the source count for the WotKnot recordings covers more boat-lovers than boat-haters. But I guess you are sitting on the statistics to fill us in there... :).

My points are that:
  • (1) Martta Ropponen was into scouting and [\li]
    • (2) published a comprehensive non-mariner knot-source, comparable to Berger's 1917 knotmonograph and [\li]
      • (3) had no qualms about leaving the trodden path (she came up with that infamous whipknot aka constrictor and your pet; WotKnot (hahaha)).
      • (4) Less ferociously I will defend that there was a knot-movement away from boats between, say 1908 and 1933,when CLD started sailing through knotbookland until EKFR and ABOK, squashed the subject and claimed it for the sailing gang. We have to wait till Bruce Grant undertook a reclaim for the cowboys & Co.

J.Knoop

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Re: What if Clifford Ashley had been into Scouting instead of Whaling?
« Reply #39 on: July 22, 2009, 03:31:51 PM »
Think something HTMLish got botched there. Lemme try again:

  • (1) Martta Ropponen was into scouting and
  • (2) published a comprehensive non-mariner knot-source, comparable to Berger's 1917 knotmonograph and
  • (3) had no qualms about leaving the trodden path (she came up with that infamous whipknot aka constrictor and your pet; WotKnot (hahaha)).
  • (4) Less ferociously I will defend that there was a knot-movement away from boats between, say 1908 and 1933,when CLD started sailing through knotbookland until EKFR and ABOK, squashed the subject and claimed it for the sailing gang. We have to wait till Bruce Grant undertook a reclaim for the cowboys & Co.

Some fine day I will manage to figure out how the preview functionality workds :).

Joop Knoop.


Dan_Lehman

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Re: What if Clifford Ashley had been into Scouting instead of Whaling?
« Reply #40 on: July 22, 2009, 06:08:26 PM »
Think something HTMLish got botched there. Lemme try again:
  • (1) Martta Ropponen ...
  • (3) had no qualms about leaving the trodden path
     (she came up with that infamous whipknot aka constrictor and your pet; Wot?Knot (hahaha)).

Maybe it wasn't so much qualms she lacked but just critical thinking?
For it occurs to me that someone who could put out Hasluck's Wot?knot
-- "a tangled mess"/"bungle", to quote one keen knot observer (Bushby) -- ,
and who names the Constrictor "Whip Knot" (based on Esperanto
from her cited source), could well be misinterpreting the supposed
image of the appropriate-to-whips (mass-concentrating, blood-drawing
knobs, i.e.) Strangle Knot as other than it was.  (As is e.g. the case
with the frequent presentation ( e.g., in CLDay's AKS) of a Transom
knot as a C. variant -- it is in fact a Strangle, in structure, though
indeed with geometry more like the Constrictor.)

Soooo, to BambooFence's
"I'm further motivated to look for knot books the next time I'm in Mexico,
 and maybe even in Bangladesh this summer."
, I can say, do so, but
better yet, just look for knots -- the books might take you back to some
form of make-believe (but maybe not) expected to be conveyed/imposed
on the local population (who might knot well enough neverminding books).
You are getting to some interesting venues!

--dl*
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ps:
Quote
Some fine day I will manage to figure out how the preview functionality workds :).

As in its showing sometimes higher up in the window than is visible w/o scrolling?
But Edit works in reformatting the omitted '/' thingeys.  And if we reduce your
count thus of re-posts, you'd be less "Full(-of-it)" than the Posties counter shows!   ;D



J.Knoop

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Re: What if Clifford Ashley had been into Scouting instead of Whaling?
« Reply #41 on: July 22, 2009, 08:41:32 PM »
Dan Lehman wrote:

Quote
Maybe it wasn't so much qualms she lacked but just critical thinking?

I think most knot-authors have gone down that alley (non-critically thinking) at some point in their llives, but I really wonder whether it helps to keep repeating that observation. My reply now becomes: so what? People can publish anything they want about knots. Take a good look at Patrick Conti's metaphysical knot waffle and you will see what I mean. There is no way the propagation of nonsense is going to be stopped unless knotters (and especially knot authors) become better educated about the essentials of their/our subject. There simply is no critical thinking when it comes to knots; the good part of that is related to a quote I once heard from some cliffhanger: "only the smart ones survive". Solace can be found when realizing that it could all have been much worse in knotcworld! If the knot gets you killed, that's the end of its lifespan - and yours. But critical thinking is something taboo in knot world; probably one of the reasons why knots are linked to the gods. Enjoy reading James Frazer's  Golden Bough for that (http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/3623).

But what is going to be done about the lack of critical thinking in knot author land, Dan? What is your take on that?

As for your expert advice to BambooFenceKnot, we are not in disagreement, for once. Looking for the knotzoos is usually a waste of time, I know because I have ruined precious years of my life trying to chart knotting bibliography from Russia to the South American continent and beyond. Just poking your nose into people doing a knotthingey in Bangladesh is far more rewarding than trying to find an illusive orginal Pakistani or Bengali knotbook.

As for Dan's swipe:

Quote
if we reduce your count thus of re-posts, you'd be less "Full(-of-it)" than the Posties counter shows! 


Guess you are losing sleep over your once comfortable lead in post-counts to start outputting that kind of prose. I will just leave you with one question: how come you self-appointed knotting elite manage to give almost every new contributor to this forum a graciously warm welcome? You personally made me a "full-of-it" member and I read about quite a few other contributors being welcomed with less elegance. My suggestion is that we quit these kind of quips :).


Joop Knoop.




J.Knoop

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Re: What if Clifford Ashley had been into Scouting instead of Whaling?
« Reply #42 on: July 23, 2009, 07:07:05 AM »
Practical (handiman) Paul Nooncree Hasluck entered center-stage a few posts up as a non-mariner propagating the WotKnot lore. One of the other scoutknot promotors, thus far left out of the discussion, is Philippe Tossijn. He published a series of book(lets) on practical and decorative knotting from a scouting angle towards the end of World War II. If you sweep our authors onto one list, collate their sources and motives, you get a (coherent?) picture which stretches across several language areas and non-mariner topics.

It is interesting to note that Cyrus Day, who undertook considerable effort to chart elusive knot sources, gradually let go of his once-favoured sailor-knots approach aiming for a more general presentation in The Art of Knotting and Splicing and more philosophically inclined presentation in Quipus and Witches' Knots. However, overall the Anglo-Saxon knot scene has been developing along the ABOK-line and to a lesser extent EKFR. In this thread we have had a go at the sailor influence in knotting, glanced at the militaray knotting, seen Asian knotting samples surface and made a case for attacking the powerbase of the boating bunch. The question to pose, relating to Squarerigger's exasperation and anxieties, that this thread is futile and hypothetical: "Can the world be changed in getting it to understand that knotting does not belong to the sailors?". Is it, at all, possible to get people away from their irrational beliefs that sailors are responsible for (most?!) knots, or is that a comfortable position which should not be changed?

Joop Knoop.

Dan_Lehman

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Re: What if Clifford Ashley had been into Scouting instead of Whaling?
« Reply #43 on: July 23, 2009, 06:48:00 PM »
Dan Lehman wrote:
Quote
Maybe it wasn't so much qualms she lacked but just critical thinking?
I think most knot-authors have gone down that alley (non-critically thinking) at some point in their llives,
 but I really wonder whether it helps to keep repeating that observation.
I think it does.  It has taken a while, but gradually at least my eyes opened to how
very much knots books are based on ... other knots books -- and not on some
independent research !  And, in this Wot?knot and other cases I could cite, it is really
amazing to see how very wrong/mistaken/confused the knots books can be!!
We have an entanglement that in no way resembles something useful, and yet it
is echoed nonetheless as though ... what?  -- it could be, had been, ... useful?
The EKFR situation is just this but amplified by bulk to (we'll hope) an extreme.
To the cursory consideration, it is a book that (must ) capture the vast history
of knotting; but on inspection there is laughable nonsense (and, to any of its defenders,
at least the absence --objective assessment:  simply words not there-- of any information
(along with the comical structures presented, often begging the question Why...?! ).

Moreover, the degree of copycat plagiarism --such as simply scanning (and
then computer re-rendering) images but promoting them as "specially commissioned
artwork" (no less!), really appalls me.  And I surmise it would appall others, were
they made aware of it.
Maybe we need a continued thread for ready reference here on the errors in knots books,
To promote the art, craft and science of knotting, its study and practice ...
.

Yes, surprisingly, people can publish much of anything.
But some resellers also carry places for comments, and e.g. Amazon.com holds some
reader reviews of works, which can be helpful to prospective buyers.  Sometimes
one must wonder at the reviewers; I have had my own battle there over the Derrick
Lewis fraud, but I think its sales have been slight.  (Though it seems the usual case
that knot books aren't reissued; rather, another new one pops up (as though we
need another, copying the earlier)!?)

Quote
[re Great Knots and How to Tie Them ]
This is another BAD book about knots. It appears that a publisher wanted a knot book,
 or an author wanted to be published? Worse, the book plagirizes good a good text and
 in crude paraphrasing renders even that advice as nonsense. A general failing of the book
 is that the pretty photos of tied knots are simply NOT of what they propose to be, ...

[This book has scanned & re-rendered images from Eric C. Fry's book.]

Well, a small challenge, which "12 of 12" found Helpful -- and quickly moved on.
... small victories ...

As for that Ashley's Index project:  mea culpa (well, speaking for myself).  The
idea is to make a better/smarter index, bringing the key references to attention
over the mere mentions ("... or a Clove hitch ..."), along with corrections.  And
in the process of going through the material, of course, we can also come up
with at least a good ballpark estimate of "How many knots" are presented -- a
rough guesstimate I once made was that Ashley showed about 150 of hitches,
say, with similarly sized (sub 1000s) totals for ends-joiners & eye-knots.  Which
of course touches the bit on classification, another puzzle.
Along with What is a *knot*?, for which there is an old thread which might
be revived to help populate the Knot Theory... (sub-)forum.

--dl*
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J.Knoop

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Re: What if Clifford Ashley had been into Scouting instead of Whaling?
« Reply #44 on: July 24, 2009, 06:50:51 AM »
Okay, your point is taken, Dan, but what I was trying to say that repeating it here serves little purpose. It appears to me that we pretty well know which marketting mechanism are at work. We also know what to do about it, but little preventive action is undertaken.

Running short of time right now, I shall return later.

Joop Knoop.

 

anything