The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008

[PwH]

Well Dan , I was in two minds about how to order the thing, and it's probably because I am pedantic that I opted for the pagination with symbols version!  :-) Don't knock it tho- pedantic is good in some areas- radio voice technique for example, and it's probably only pedants could be bothered to do an IM.IN. at all! So some degree of pedantry kind of goes with the territory ;-)  Nonetheless if any body else would like to vote on how would be best for the majority I'm happy to concur- in fact I'm almost convinced already - those multitudinous brackets do get a bit fuzzy after a while! When I get some time I might put up both versions to see what you all think- or A.N.Other could do it if you want to?
Cheers, Peter

[PwH]

Hi All,
As promised, here is the "ordered by relevance" version of the index for the sheet bend. I have to agree Dan that it's a lot easier to use (and produce) than my first attempt! This along with the Bowline and Reef or Square Knot will shortly be appearing on the wiki at http://knotcyphers.pbwiki.com/ABoK-WikiIndex . Anybody's welcome to join the fun and do your favourite knot or three- there's plenty to choose from ! Special bonus points for finding any missed citations on these or any other entries.

Regards to All,

Peter

Sheet Bend #1431

Primary forms including odd or trick tyings that result in the same knot: #1, #64, #65, #66, #72, #78, #402, #403, #1431, #1433, #1436, #1473, #1550, #2005, #2562.

Secondary forms e.g. double sheet bend, weavers knot etc: #2, #67, #177, #485, #488, #490, #492, #1432, #1434, #1435, #1437, #1438, #1461, #1501.

Practical applications: #253, #1223, #1418, #1497, #1522, #1523, #1988, #1990.

References in other entries: #68, #335, #336, #1034.5, #1410, #1424, #1425a, #1440, #1449, #1900.

References in the general text: Page no.,Top, Middle, Bottom. : p11b, p273m&b.

[DerekSmith]

A simple change, yet such a vast improvement in clarity and usability, this now promises to be a valuable index.

As an index, is it intended to include pg No.s for the references or will the user be expected to look up the ABoK No. in the ABoK index to find the page to look at?

I notice Peter that you have been getting to grips with editing the wiki.  Could I suggest that a little of this ingenuity be spent thinking about how best to structure the information on the wiki.  Now the individual knot information structure is being rationalised, we can expect to start to see the results posted onto the wiki, and before long hopefully there will be a number of knots indexed there, so some thought as to how they will be presented would be valuable.  Will each knot be given its own page linked to a master index on the front page? or will all the results simply be listed in one huge page?

I have put a sample knot page together for the Sheet Bend here http://knotcyphers.pbwiki.com/Sheet+Bend

Derek

[PwH]

Thanks Derek,

Re page numbers, Do you think they are needed in this index- it seems easy enough to open the ABOK almost anywhere and find the #number directly? Admittedly some of the low numbers are a bit scattered in the text so maybe for them- but once into the real 'meat' the numbers flow pretty well. What do others think?  Also re "will the user be expected to look up the ABoK No. in the ABoK index"- my ABOK has no reference to the #number in the index at all, it's page numbers only there- I envisage people doing as above when using the improved 'Super Index'- just diving in at any page and locating by #number only. Open to suggestions tho --

Regrds, Peter

[DerekSmith]

Gees - my myopic mind.  I forgot that the whole book is indexed by ABoK No.

Don't mind me, I'm slow but catch up eventually.

Keep up the good work.

Derek

[PwH]

Good Morning All,

Hope this finds you all well and happy, and ready for some work! You can find a couple more entries on the Index here at http://knotcyphers.pbwiki.com/ABoK-WikiIndex .

At the rate of progress so far I doubt if I will complete the job before I go to meet the Great KnotMeister, (hopefully not for another 50 years or so) so please, please think about whether you can do an entry or two? Many hands make light work and all that- I think we've just about got the format right now but all suggestions are welcome. It's easy enough once you get into it, and if you need any tools or advice to get started please contact me or Derek.

Yours,

Peter H.

[PwH]

Hi Folks,

Thought I'd put the listings up here as well as the wiki seeing as this topic seems to have died. Did I upset you all with my "Pedant Rant" I wonder? If so - Sorry Dan et all. Didn't mean to offend.

So here they are- I really would appreciate some comments and advice as to omissions and errors, or suggestions for improvements, or even to say how wonderful it is. 

Here they are -

Cheers, Peter H

Bowline #1010
Primary forms including odd or trick tyings that result in the same knot: #71, #1010, #1014, #1015, #1716, #1783, #1787, #1788, #2549, #2550, #2551, #2586, #2587.

Secondary forms eg. Double B, B on a bight etc: #1011, #1012, #1013, #1016, #1034.5, #1057, #1058, #1072, #1074, #1075, #1080, #1081, #1082, #1083, #1087, #1117, #1137, #1848, #2564.

Practical applications of the knot in its various forms: With the Bowline, its original use is so integral to its name and nature that I have included such instances in bold even where the bowline knot itself is not used.
#155, #157, #158, #162, #163, #202, #265, #266, #267, #287, #332, #338, #407, #471, #1226, #1455, #1475, #1476, #1499, #1507, #1508, #1509, #1514, #1544, #1724, #1726, #1842, #1846, #1849? #1850, #1853, #1861, #1882, #1916, #1917, #1926, #2052, #2066, #2071, #2080, #2090, #2160, #2168, #2191, #3826.

References in other entries: #143, #1024, #1078, #1079, #1084, #1114, #1138, #1431, #1845, #1874, #1987, #2067, #2608, #2612, #2837, #2842, #2843, #3407, #3434.

References in the general text: page no. top middle or bottom:

p39b, p185-several, p193t, p203b.

Reef or Square knot #1204, #1205
Primary forms including odd or trick tyings that result in the same knot: #74, #75, #76, #77, #460, #462, #487, #1204, #1205, #1441, #1547, #1549, #2575.

Secondary forms e.g. double sheet bend, weavers knot etc: #1211, #1212, #1217, #1218.

Practical applications: #226, #263, #390, #404, #405, #447, #476, #664, #1267, #1402, #1403, #1404, #1513, #1757, #1893, #1899, #2064, #2076, #2086, #2096, #2098, #2104, #2114, #2209, #2402, #2406, #2412, #2413, #2449, #2552, #2796, #2797, #2856, #3096, #3126, #3130, #3267, #3271, #3379, #3413, #3439, #3444, #3448, #3449, #3452, #3458, #3498, #3773, #3799-3812.

References in other entries: #47, #80-81, #185, #186, #251, #413, #449-450-451, #461, #463, #1168, #1207, #1419, #1425a, #1480, #2012, #2523, #2688.

References in the general text: Page no. & Top, Middle, Bottom. : p68t, p75t, p220t, p273m, p399- A whole chapter on square knotting.
 

Sheet Bend #1431
Primary forms including odd or trick tyings that result in the same knot: #1, #64, #65, #66, #72, #78, #402, #403, #1431, #1433, #1436, #1473, #1550, #2005, #2562.

Secondary forms e.g. double sheet bend, weavers knot etc: #2, #67, #177, #485, #488, #490, #492, #1432, #1434, #1435, #1437, #1438, #1461, #1501.

Practical applications: #253, #1223, #1418, #1497, #1522, #1523, #1988, #1990.

References in other entries: #68, #335, #336, #1034.5, #1410, #1424, #1425a, #1440, #1449, #1900.

References in the general text: Page no.,Top, Middle, Bottom. : p11b, p273m&b.

[PwH]

Clove Hitch #1176 to #1180 and #1773 to #1779.

Primary forms including odd or trick tyings that result in the same knot: #11, #53, #1176 to #1180,  #1773 to #1779, #2541 to #2548

Secondary forms:

Practical applications: #149, #198, #201, #204, #212, #262, #315, #318?, #346, #368, #400, #421, #432, #437, #441, #442, #443, #444, #445, #467, #506, #1161, #1229, #1245, #1270, #1271, #1272, #1273, #1275, #1276, #1670, #1671, #1672, #1739, #1805, #1814, #1869, #1887, #1998, #2040, #2079, #2102, #2128, #2149, #2150, #2159, #2162, #2180, #2825, #3038, #3039, #3097, #3123, #3177, #3322, #3331, #3435, #3436, #3437, #3782, #3787, #3792, #3799

Fancy Work:  #2412, #2486, #2501, #2507, #2509, #2516, #2620

Other Knots started with a Clove Hitch: #576, #1034, #1092, #1140, #1693, #2000, #2052

References in other entries: #48, #197, #244, #355, #390, #1268, #1728/9, #2011, #2088, #3095, #3098, #3323, #3390

References in the general text: Page no. & Top, Middle, Bottom. : p11b, p213title;m, p283b, p301b, p302t, p407b

[PwH]

Hi Everybody,

As you can tell this is taking a long time to get anywhere. I would appreciate some feedback so I know if it's worth carrying on.

What do you think of the show so far? Is it of any use to you? Is the present format OK, or could it be better? Would you like to help?

Answers on a posting please to this forum.

PwH.

[Lynn]

Hi

I'm the one that's been plugging away with ABOKs.  I've been tying the knots and putting them on index cards with the "knot name and number".  I am realizing how many knots have no name and are compilations of other knots in one order or another. 
Do you have access to an ABOK on line that you can do searches for certain words?  Going page by page is a Herculean task.  And it seem Mr. Ashley does a lot of "similar to knot 'such and such' " or "looks like knot 'such and such' ".  How are you handling those?  I guess in the bottom part "other references".

I really think that this is helpful.  Because in my earlier days I never used this book because there were so many places to look to figure out one knot.  If I had I probably would have found many of the answers to my questions.  For example: The True-Lover's Knot, Diamond Knot, Japanese Knot and Butterfly Knots seemed to have been tied a different way in each book.  And this summer when I was teaching "Knots 101" at the club, I want to find as many ways to teach the bowline and the clove hitch as possible.

Thanks for your efforts.  I'd be glad to help when I get finished with my self appointed task of ABOK.  I'm skipping some of the really decorative knots that must be tied on the cork board.  I do a few and then move on to the next chapter.  I'm into Chapter 12 now.

Lynn

[Sweeney]

I am sure that this is a most useful exercise and the sort of information collated so far shows just how useful it will be. I do have a reservation about organising the information and making it available electronically. Ideally the data should be organised into records such that the user can extract the information to suit them - this probably means that the number of records required would be well in excess of the number of knots in Ashley but it can be started and tested with one knot (eg the bowline) and built from there over time - it's also easier to correct and update in this form. I haven't as yet looked at a practical way of organising the info - a spreadsheet is probably as good a tool as any for prototyping but I do think it would be useful spending time looking at data management as well as the actual data itself.

Happy to help in any way I can (I do know more about data management than I do knot tying but unfortunately that's not saying much!)

Since posting this I've thought some more about the issue and therefore added this bit (the above is a bit cryptic perhaps). Although presentation is important this comes at the end rather than the beginning - although it's vital to know what you're aiming to provide. The cross references etc will fall out of an analysis of Ashley automatically if you record the basic knot data in a simple form - clearly there has been a lot of effort expended so far but as progess is made it may become very difficult to sustain ie you can read forward to where a clove hitch is repeated or used as the basis or start of another knot but when you index the later knot how do you refer back to the origin without a lot of effort again? I appreciate that this may still be as clear as mud but rather than confuse the issue any further I'll await comments.

[Lynn]

Do you have access to an ABOK on line that you can do searches for certain words? 

I recently discovered an online version of ABOK.  I have since converted most of it to a "word document".  I also converted it to a searchable .pfd file.  I'm planning to use this for my own referencing only, but if I can be of any help in searching certain names or knots, let me know.  I've been working on this all week and must get back to life at hand.  Boy spell checker went crazy with this task; I guess when this was written there were more compound word, like "sailmaker, jamproof and lacemaking" not to mention all of the sailing terminology.
Lynn

[PwH]

Hi Lynn & Sweeney et All

Yes  I do have PDF version of ABOK courtesy of one who shall remain nameless for legal reasons. I also own a hardback paper copy ( had it for years)  so I don't feel guilty about the PDF. I would be unsure about sharing the file with anyone who doesn't already own the book as I think it may infringe copyright? Are there any leagle eagles out there can tell us about that?

 Fantastic work Lynn, I couldn't find it online myself! You've now got the tools to help with this index project if you wish, it is too much for anyone (well, me anyway) to attempt alone, so if you can help that would be most encouraging.

Sweeney- I'm very interested in what you can do with data records- I know almost nothing about the subject beyond that they exist!! Please tell me more?

As ever, anyone want to help? Just a few knots each will see it off, all the book for one or two people is too much to even attempt. How about it Dan?

Regards, Peter H

[Sweeney]

Hi Peter

I'll try and keep this short and non-techie. A data record is a structured set of information. If it related to a person it might contain name, gender, marital status, date of birth, address, phone, e-mail etc. A collection of these records on a computer enables selection of people by age for example or where they live from postcode (or equivalent) - mailing lists are a typical example. With Ashley one could take all knots considered relevant (ie it may be sensible to exclude the complex fancy knots at least in the first pass), and record the following:

Knot number
Name*
Original knot entry number (for such as a clove hitch which appears many times)
Type (from a predetermined list to make it searchable eg hitch, bend but not restricted to a 'purist' view!)
Purpose (as this number in Ashley)
Knot no it starts with
Variation from standard knot (text - add anything)
Comments (again text)

I must stress that this is only a sample to explain what you might do but from these details you can, (in no particular order):

reorder the list in any order eg name then number;
find any knot by number or name*;
extract a group of knots such as the 'Knot no it starts with' or the knot type;
transfer the data to a word processor or other program in a form for printing (needs some work but is not that difficult or time consuming as long as ambition is kept in
check);
add more detail to the individual records over time.

One plus point is that many people can type part of the data each with a brief guide as to what to do (you don't need any particular software - even Windows Notepad would do) and send it to a file administrator for building the records file and any simple editing eg obvious spelling errors. Later corrections/additions are easy for one or more administrators.

A final point  - over time new knots could be added to the list as long as diagrams etc they were available from a consistent source eg the IGKT website and number say 5000 upwards to separate then clearly from Ashley - a (very) long term aim I would think.

Hope this helps.

Barry

*Footnote - one knot may have many names but the easiest solution is to add the same number several times with each name and a "Duplicate" field with a "Y" to aid searching no other details are needed as they are shown against the first occurence of the number (identiifiable because 'Duplicate' has "N" in it). Which name is considered the 'original' is not worth agonising over as they are all there.

[PwH]

Here's the latest. Why the sheepshank? Well why not? It just so happens I wanted a variant ( the sword knot) for a shoulder strap for my ditty bag. Not at all a traditional ditty bag, actually a modified electricians tool bag/bucket, but I quite like it.

 The Sheepshank, FKA shepshanke or sheeps feete (p207)

Primary forms of the sheepshank #1152, #1153, to #1166, a whole series of SS.
 
Practical Work #202, #238, #1088, #3093,

Fancy Work  #2297, #2298, #2299, #2432,

Trick tyings #2566, #2567, #2568,

Knots starting with : none

Mentioned in other entries #172, #366, #1146, #1873, #2428,

Mentioned in the general text   p11b, p74b, p195t, p207m&b, p383m,
 
Also Indexed under: Half SS, Handcuff SS, Navy SS,, SS and Shepshanke

Happy Christmas Everybody!

P.S. now working on the RT with and without 2HH- a fascinating tool, the RT and further evolutions being one of the most powerful rope formations known to (insert your prefered personal denominator) man.