YONN (Yet another new knot) and a new member introduction

[Paco]

Hey all!  Before I tell you I've invented a new knot, let me introduce myself.

My name is Paco, and I'm a knotaholic.  Okay, not really, but I do enjoy working with knots.  I'm a teacher by profession, but inventor by passion.  Mostly, I build backpacking equipment with forays into camera accessories, but have ventured into knots when the need arises.  Check out http://www.youtube.com/user/PacoWarabi for videos (including some knot videos, and how I use knots in my backpacking).

So, as DIY backpacker, I wanted to find an easy way to set up a tarp.  For convenience sake, I like to use carabiners, so I figured some sort of fixed loop in paracord would be great.  I could tie the paracord around the tree, then clip the tarp into the fixed loop via the carabiner.  Quick and easy.

But then I decided I wanted to go even easier, and wanted a quick release fixed loop to make setup and takedown faster, since I might have to be doing so in the rain, snow, or dark.  I looked through my different knot books, and went online, searching for the holy grail that was extremely easy to tie, secure while using, and easy to untie after loaded (not me, the cord, although knots that can be untied after being completely drunk would be a interesting topic).  Not finding what I wanted, I started experimenting.  I tried just using a slipped overhand knot, but of course, that slips.  So then I thought a slipped overhand knot with a stopper knot would do the trick, but I wanted the stopper to be a slip knot as well.  So I put two slipped overhands next to each other, the first acting as a fixed loop, the second acting as the stopper.

That worked fine, but then I had visions of taking this knot with me on scouting trips.  All someone would have to do is pull the end of the cord on the stopper knot, and the fixed loop would no longer be fixed.  That's just asking to have my tarp dropped in the middle of the night.  Then I discovered that if the loop of the stopper knot was put over the fixed loop and then pulled snug (not tight), you got a compact little knot that couldn't collapse and be very secure with the carabiner attached.  But unclip the carabiner and it can be completely untied with one hand and a quick tug.

I can tie the knot in about 6 seconds, and untie it in approx. half a second.  And as far as I know, it's a new knot.  Until I know different, I'm calling it the Positive knot.  Two slipped loop knots equals one fixed loop knot.  Two negatives equals a positive.  Get it?

For a visual demonstration of this knot, check out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oRZjkKdSt4

I also show the benefits of the knot on http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kd-EhIh6_jw

Now, this is the part where I would like some feedback.  First of all, does anyone know if this has been invented already?  And if so, what's it called?  I've exhausted my resources, including all the internet sites showing single loop knots, but being new to the world of IGKT, I don't have any back issues of Knotting Matters.  I don't have a copy of ABOT on hand, so I can't search through that.  It's such a simple knot that it must have already been invented, but for the life of me, I can't find it.

Anyway, thanks for listening to my long ramble (I tend to do that in forums).  I've got a few other things to share in the future, so I hope this goes well!

-Paco

[squarerigger]

Welcome Paco,

Interesting site and a neat invention!  Not so much a new knot, IMHO, as a combination of an old knot tied with itself to make a new form, creating a non-moving loop in the bight, but maybe that does constitute a new knot?  Very useful I would think, but I have not tested it - perhaps one of our testers would care to take a crack at that?  It is certainly able to perform well as you have it shown - what happens after a night of freezing rain?  Does it get more difficult to open the closed second slippery overhand after a few days?  Is there a useful maximum size of line that this could be used with and could it perform as well when tied in polypropylene as when tied in kernmantel?  Shoot a line back to us and let us know what your thoughts and experiences are in using it.   

SR

[Paco]

Thanks, Squarerigger!

I've always wondered what constitutes a new knot.  From my limited experience, one variation in a knot may give it a new name, or even the exact same knot used for different purposes seems to get new names (for example, the bottle/jug sling and the hackamore).  So what is a knot, what is a variation, and what is a series of knots?  Isn't a Killick Hitch just a Timber Hitch and a half hitch combined?  I figured that the only authoritative body for knotwork is the IGKT, so if you can't give me the answers, no one can.  I'd never thought of the Positive Knot as a series of knots, but that's a valid point.  I'd like to hear some other opinions on that.  Does the fact that the two knots are intertwined make more of a case for it being thought of as a single knot than if they were separate, like in my original design?

As for testing, I'd love to hear from anyone who would like to test it.  I've mainly used it with kernmantle, although I just tried it with a soft cotton shoelace, pulling it as tight as possible with bare hands, and it came out relatively easily.  From my limited experience, thicker rope seems to be easier to pull it out of than thinner stuff.  I've put my full weight on it with thicker climbing rope (no idea the diameter) and was still able to untie it with minimum effort, but when I tried thinner climbing rope, it took a while to get it undone.  But like I said, I've mostly used it for setting up a tarp between two trees with paracord, so I haven't really used it in extreme conditions.

When using paracord, I've left the loaded knot up in the backyard for a few days, and it still slipped out fine.  No rain, let alone freezing rain, so I can't comment there.

One other thing I've found in my testing, it's very secure.  I purposely tied the knots very loosely, and in that situation it is possible to deliberately get the knot to capsize, but even then it is next to impossible to get the knot to completely come undone.  So that's definitely not an issue.  I wonder about strength, but lack the understanding to even make a guess on that.

Once again, I welcome any insight into this knot.  That's the wonderful thing about the internet.  There's always someone who knows more about a subject than me!

[roo]

As for testing, I'd love to hear from anyone who would like to test it.  I've mainly used it with kernmantle, although I just tried it with a soft cotton shoelace, pulling it as tight as possible with bare hands, and it came out relatively easily.  From my limited experience, thicker rope seems to be easier to pull it out of than thinner stuff.  I've put my full weight on it with thicker climbing rope (no idea the diameter) and was still able to untie it with minimum effort, but when I tried thinner climbing rope, it took a while to get it undone.  But like I said, I've mostly used it for setting up a tarp between two trees with paracord, so I haven't really used it in extreme conditions.

I'm short on time currently, so just a few items for now:

1.  You don't have a diagram to present?  Downloading megs of video can be a real drag, even if your computer has all the plug-ins.  You have a wide audience.  Maybe some of them won't mind YouTubing a knot, but a substantial number will.

2. If you already had problems with untying it with one of just a few trials of unknown strain, that doesn't bode well.

3.  What's wrong with a fixed bowline (or some variant)? 

[DerekSmith]

Hi Paco,

Welcome to the IGKT and I hope you hang around, you are like a breath of fresh air (and by the looks of your YouTube vids a totally crazy character to boot).

I am a great believer in using and re-using the simplest of knots, and your novel use of two slipped OH knots is a little gem.  It is so logical, I am sure it must have been 'discovered' many times over by folks fiddling with rope, so I am amazed that it does not seem to feature in any of the usual reference lists, but perhaps someone will spot it amongst the thousands of images in ABoK, not that that should detract from your discovery (or rediscovery if a reference to it is later found).

Is it a knot or simply a use of the slipped OH?  Of course it is a knot, just as much as a Sheepshank or a Matthew Walker is, but instead of calling it the Positive Knot, perhaps a more memorable name would be 'The YANK' (or should that be OGNANK - Oh God, Not Another New Knot).

As for 'is it a good knot'? that is an all-together different question.

Is it easy to remember?  -- Yes, based on the simple slipped OH  -- 10/10
Is it easy to tie?  --  ditto  --  10/10
Is it hard to get wrong? --  Yes, two slipped OH's and it doesn't seem to matter which loop goes through which --  10/10
Is it possible to dress it wrong?  --  not tested it enough yet  --  ??/10
Is it stable?  --  ditto, but so far looking good  --  ??/10
Is it strong  --  the tight two diameter loading loops will probably be limiting, but it is likely to be as strong, if not stronger than the Bowline  -- (5/10 as a guess)
Is it easy to untie?  --  in light to medium loads, yes, in overloaded or problematical cord possibly not  --  8/10

Am I going to use it?  Yes, I will give it a try, but my preferred loopknot is at present the slipped OH tied using a bight and the slipped end loop either passed forward to make three loops or passed  over the main loops and back around the SP(s) to form two loops.  For example, if I am tying down a load, I can use all three loops to form Z loops in three different directions to strap down the load and the whole thing auto adjusts as the tension goes on.

As for video vs diagram, I understand Roo's position, so here is a diagram for those who don't have a connection that lends itself to viewing video clips.

  Please let me know if I have it wrong !!

However, video is without question the future for all knot knowledge transfer, explain and show at the same time - how to tie, how to dress, how to use, how to untie - it is the perfect media and your video is excellent.  So good in fact, that I have to ask a favour of you.

Would you consider making a short tutorial of 'How to make a video of knot tying' - what camera quality/options, recording format/quality, lighting, focus, sound, how to format it for YouTube etc. etc.   --  PLEASE.

We are lucky that you have stopped by, crazy folks like you are likely to be the only future that knotting has of becoming a popular activity again.  I can tell that you are a knotahollic from your dexterity in handling cord and the way you automatically use twist to form loops and remove twist as you dress up the knot.  Excitement, energy and interest like yours is infectious and your love of knots and cord will undoubtedly catch on with others of your generation - provided you live long enough that is - was that you riding down a rocky hillside on a one wheeled bike ?

Derek

[roo]

As for video vs diagram, I understand Roo's position, so here is a diagram for those who don't have a connection that lends itself to viewing video clips.

Derek has swiftly provided Paco with a diagram that shows the knot to be little more than Ashley Book of Knots # 1018 Department Store Loop, with some non-functional rope added on.  I'll have to review the video some time, as I thought the standing part might have been on the other side.  Derek, I might be misinterpeting what your arrow and circle signify regarding the standing part of the rope.  ABoK #1018 is a slip noose with a stopper to prevent the slip noose from pulling apart, essentially.

It's a loop that is best suited to disposable stuff.  As Paco has already found, it's going to have jamming issues.

[squarerigger]

Roo,

I have looked at #1018 in ABOK and must respectfully disagree with your assessment - this new form is not #1018.  It comes close in its idea to #1042 and perhaps to #1049.  I do not see this new form in any of the knots in Chapter 11, Single Loop Knots in ABOK.  What about the knots in this Chapter am I missing, if it is there?

SR
PS  Just took a closer look at #1048 and this one is close to the new form....

[DerekSmith]

Roo,

I have looked at #1018 in ABOK and must respectfully disagree with your assessment - this new form is not #1018.  It comes close in its idea to #1042 and perhaps to #1049.  I do not see this new form in any of the knots in Chapter 11, Single Loop Knots in ABOK.  What about the knots in this Chapter am I missing, if it is there?

SR
PS  Just took a closer look at #1048 and this one is close to the new form....

I don't think it is #1048 which has the OH knots interlinked, while this knot has them clear of one another and only the slipped loops interlocked.

Derek

[DerekSmith]

As for video vs diagram, I understand Roo's position, so here is a diagram for those who don't have a connection that lends itself to viewing video clips.

Derek has swiftly provided Paco with a diagram that shows the knot to be little more than Ashley Book of Knots # 1018 Department Store Loop, with some non-functional rope added on.  I'll have to review the video some time, as I thought the standing part might have been on the other side.  Derek, I might be misinterpeting what your arrow and circle signify regarding the standing part of the rope.  ABoK #1018 is a slip noose with a stopper to prevent the slip noose from pulling apart, essentially.

It's a loop that is best suited to disposable stuff.  As Paco has already found, it's going to have jamming issues.

Hi Roo,

The arrows on the right pointing INTO the knot symbolise the returning legs of the loop.

The arrow pointing away from the knot on the LHS symbolises the continuation of the rope to the SP and the small closed loop on the end of the lower LHS end, is my simplistic attempt to symbolise whipping on the end of the WE.

Paco talks of this as a midline knot, but the example in the video shows an end as diagrammed, although this end is not used in the tying.

Derek

[roo]

Hi Roo,

The arrows on the right pointing INTO the knot symbolise the returning legs of the loop.

The arrow pointing away from the knot on the LHS symbolises the continuation of the rope to the SP and the small closed loop on the end of the lower LHS end, is my simplistic attempt to symbolise whipping on the end of the WE.

Paco talks of this as a midline knot, but the example in the video shows an end as diagrammed, although this end is not used in the tying.

Derek

OK.  Then your diagram seems to match my memory of the video.  It's a slip noose + a stopper.  The stopper just happens to have a loop sticking out that doesn't transmit load.  Agreed, Squarerigger?

Courtesy of Google Books and ABoK:

For reference.

[squarerigger]

Hi Roo,

I am going to try to attach a photograph of #1018 and the new form; here goes...Let me know what you think?   

SR

[roo]

Hi Roo,

I am going to try to attach a photograph of #1018 and the new form; here goes...Let me know what you think?   

SR

Allow the second slipnoose (bottom in Derek's diagram) to relax, and pull the main load-carrying loop.  Or just pull the main load-carrying loop as if it's being used.  It's a slipnoose + a stopper.  After all, the second slipnoose is completely free to slide and is incapable of taking load.  Only its bulk takes load, not the sliding loop.

The limp loop that happens to stick out of the "stopper" merely obscures what is going on.  Loosen it up to the point of exaggeration, pull the main load-carrying loop and take the photo again.  Make sure you show the free end.

[DerekSmith]

Don't forget that this can be TIB and is functional on both / either line.  This is clearly not the case for #1018 where if you load the stopper leg it will just pull out the slip loop and destroy the loop.

Both loops are locked and both lines can take load, far from being a dysfunctional slip noose, the 'second' noose is wholly functional in this knot.

Derek

[roo]

Don't forget that this can be TIB and is functional on both / either line.  This is clearly not the case for #1018 where if you load the stopper leg it will just pull out the slip loop and destroy the loop.

Both loops are locked and both lines can take load, far from being a dysfunctional slip noose, the 'second' noose is wholly functional in this knot.

Derek

In the video, Paco shows the free end, making it look like he's intending it for an end loop.  Paco also mentions that he tried just a slipknot with a slipknot for a stopper (although with the loops separate) in his first attempt, which again indicates that he's going for an end knot, since that will not work as a multi-directional bighted loop.  As such, the second noose of the knot in question is incapable of being a load path.

Regardless of whether it's used as an end loop or as a multi-directional bighted loop, I'm not seeing the reason for neglecting well-known knots.

[Paco]

Wow!  I just got home from work, and here's a load of replies!  Thanks for responding, everyone!

I personally prefer putting up videos in YouTube, as it allows you to see the actual construction of the knot, but I can definitely see the drawbacks.  I'm 30, and as such am both enthusiastic about new technology, but also wary of losing something in the process.  I'll try to add photos from now on (diagrams if necessary).

As for the discussion going on, I'm mostly following.  This is the first time I've discussed knots with anyone (no one around my neck of the woods could differentiate between a bight and a working end), so I apologize if I use misleading terms.  I'll try to clarify anything I can.

First off, I always intended to use this as a end loop.  But it would work as a midline loop tied in the bight.  As long as the carabiner (or whatever you put through the loop) is in place, there is no possible way for this knot to come undone, whether you load one end or both.  As for how easy it will be to untie if you load both ends, I don't know.

The only time I had a hard time untying it was when I put my full 175 lb weight on a thin climbing rope.  But then again, I think many fixed loop knots would be problematic to untie at that point.

And I still think it's the best knot for my particular situation.  When I'm untying my tarp, I can unclip the tarp and hold it with one hand while I just give the cord a quick tug with the other hand.  I then loosen the noose from around the tree (one handed again), and am able to pack everything up without ever letting the tarp touch the ground.

I don't think it's the same thing as 1018, as in 1018 the stopper knot could theoretically slip through the load bearing overhand, whereas in mine, it can't.  I'm going to attempt to add a photograph of the knot, loosened up so you can see all the parts.  The lefthand slipped overhand forms the load-bearing loop (the big one), and the smaller loop is the stopper.  When I use it, the end going to the left is the load-bearing end, and the end going down just hangs loosely.