Please! Name this knot? :D

[Steven B. Madewell]

I'm attempting to blazon (describe in heraldic terms) this coat of arms I've drawn for a chap by the name of J.C. Williams.  Can anyof you tell me what the name is for this style of Celtic Knot?



Steven B. Madewell
AAH Founder
http://www.freeheraldry.com

[Fairlead]

The nearest I can see in "Celtic Design Knotwork" by Aidan Meehan, is called a 'Spiral Knot'.
Havn't you got this the wrong way round....I would have thought that you would have researched an appropriate knot for the person before designing the badge.

Gordon

[KnotNow!]

Thank You Gordan,  I thought 'e 'ad 'is cart before 'is 'orse.  The knot can't be tied in one cord and is another "artists misconception" of a knot, celtic or otherwise.

[Vijay Kaul]

(BTW, I'm dropping by this group for the first time, following Steven's work.)

The knot can't be tied in one cord and is another "artists misconception" of a knot, celtic or otherwise.

I'm just curious as to why two strands prevents the intertwined strands from being "knoted." Is it because either strand, alone, would be topologically a ring? Must all knots be tied of one cord? (If so, why? I'm curious for a definition here.)

Also, as to the whole cart/horse issue There was a lot of heraldic work done before the idea of a Celtic knot was even considered (see here) and I'd guess that a lot (most?) of the folks over at the AHS are just now learning about the details of knotwork. I know I am.

What's needed most, now, is a good reference either to printed and available text or online text so that a suitable knot can be chosen. As far as I know, the only requirements are that the knot be of Celtic origin (or style?), and, preferably, that the knot be such that one could intertwine two strands (each knotted itself), one silver and one gold, simply for visual appeal.

As far as celtic knots go, though, I haven't found any great sites online that have the info Steven's looking for. Neither have I found a page detailing knots and their names, nor have I found a page detailing knots and their symbolism. So... any pointers?

Thanks in advance,
Vijay

[Brian Grimley]

Vijay Kaul:

Although I have a great admiration for the graphic design and history of the Art and Craft of Heraldry, I have little knowledge and no skill. Please bear this in mind as you read my post.

I agree with you that, although the use of interlacing (plaiting, braiding) in Celtic Art is ancient, the introduction into Heraldry is modern.  Examples of interlacing are found everywhere. For example, I have seen sketches of interlacing from Tut-Ankh-Amen's tomb (~1350 B.C.).

The most comprehensive book I have seen that discusses the methods of Celtic artwork is "Celtic Art" by George Bain, published around 1945. It may be found in a library. Modern books that I have glanced at seem mostly to be selections from Bain's book with "up-to-date" graphics.

George Bain would group Steven's work with "Celtic Interlacing Borders". He shows methods for constructing many interlacing borders. However, although he gives sources, he does not name the designs.

Your question and search for knots, names and symbolism is shared by most, if not all, members of the IGKT.  Since the Celtic knotwork is not part of "traditional heraldry", it is not part of heraldry's descriptive language. Therefore, any names of knots, designs and symbolism will be modern speculation or invention.

To blazon Stevens' coat of arms, modern heraldry may have to coin descriptive names for the designs. May I suggest one for Stephen? Are you familiar with "The Ashley Book of Knots"? The knot tyer's Bible! The knot used by Steven is called "The Crossing Knot" - #1171 in Ashley's book. Virginia I. Harvey, in her book "Macrame" (1967, pg. 73) says " When cords are looped alternatively over each other, they are known as chains or, sometimes, bars. Two cords will make a single chain ...".  Might I suggest the name: Single Crossing Knot Bar? Or, perhaps the Crossing Bar?

Please understand that the name was suggested with a smile and with a sense of humor!

I understand there is an official "College of Heraldry" in London, England.  Have you considered asking for their advice and help? I am sure, if they don't know about your group, they will be thrilled to help others who are interested in heraldric design.

Please let us know if your search produces more information on your interesting questions.

Brian.

[Fairlead]

Steven, Vijay,
You might like to try and get hold of a book entitled 'KNOTS TIES and SPLICES by J. Tom Burgess.
In this book there is a plate showing 10 Heraldic Knots and a chapter on 'The History and Philosopy of Knots'  and one explaining the 'Heraldic Knots'.

Please DO NOT ask me to scan these as my policy, as the IGKT Librarian (to protect the IGKT and adhere to copyright law),  is that I will not copy any of the contents of the Library.

I know the Internet is an easy and convenient way of obtaining information - but be cautious with what you read, try and back up the information with more than one book - I know of very few books that don't contain the odd mistakes too!

Gordon

[knot_tyer]

...that book is at:
  http://www.abebooks.com/
...(another book i'm going to have to order!!)...
Dan-Alaska  

...!!..and don't forget Knot_Chat tomorrow!!
  http://www.knotical-arts.com/knot_chat.html

[Brian Grimley]

knot_tyer,
Thank you for a source for J. Tom Burgess' book! It is a book that I am going to have to order as well!

I found out that George Bain's book, "Celtic Art: the Methods of Construction",  is still in print thanks to "Dover Publications".  Good old "Dover Publications" does try to keep the "oldies but goldies" in print.  It is available from them or through Amazon.

Fairlead,
Thank you for the reference.  

Brian.

[teedee]

Vijay Kaul:

..... Therefore, any names of knots, designs and symbolism will be modern speculation or invention.

To blazon Stevens' coat of arms, modern heraldry may have to coin descriptive names for the designs......
Brian.

Iain Bain's book "Celtic Knotwork" refers to an earlier work by J Romilly Allen - Celtic Art in Pagan and Christian Times (1904) - in which the geometric forms in Celtic design are classified. Perhaps this would be a good source for the names of the different knot forms.

Incidentally, Celtic (and heraldic) knot forms are not necessarily viable knots.

[teedee]

..... an earlier work by J Romilly Allen - Celtic Art in Pagan and Christian Times (1904) .....

This work was reprinted as a paperback in 1997, and is readily available secondhand (try AbeBooks)

[Knotman]

...I'm just curious as to why two strands prevents the intertwined strands from being "knoted...."

As an aside, it would actually take 4 strands to tie this knot.

[KnotNow!]

Hi Knotman,  I responded to one of the other posts offline but I should have posted here.  This is what I was so poorly and rudely) stating:

I'll quote the ABOK glossery: "Knot 1) Speciffically, a Knob Knot.  2) Broadly, any complication in rope except a] accidental ones, such as snarls and kinks, and b] arrangemengts for storage , coils, balls, skeins, hanks, etc.  3)The same as 2) but further excluding sinnets, splices, hitches and bends."

I think the border illustrated should be called a "design" and not be called a "knot" by definition 3) above.  The artists liberty has eliminated any ends and the little rings at top center and bottom center may or may not further the border design but would make the actual sinnet odd, at best.

Often illustrators who are not knot tyers have rope which changes from left laid to right laid, forms which would fall free in cord, forms which need multiple strands... no wait one strand... no wait 9 or 7 or one and add or delete strands at whim.  It is a two demensional representation  of an impossibility.  That is to say every knot and sinnet can be drawn but not every illustrations can be tied.

Fantasy art is wonderful.  But it isn't knotting and I would no more tempted to attach a scientiffic name to the red dragon than attempt an accurate knotting description  of the border design.

As to my cart before horse remark, it was my thought that one would try to define the design before drawing it... but that isn't my field, so my abject appology is offered.

All that said... it isn't a knot.  It might be called "a Celtic inspired border design."  But again, I would be overstepping my limited knowledge.

[Brian Grimley]

Knotman,

Thanks for pointing out the 4 strands. It brought the two "rings" back to my attention.

I noticed that Steven maintained a "over- one, under-one" in his lacing. When I focused on the rings again, I noticed how he had changed the lacing of the chain to maintain the "over-one, under-one" when he introduced the "rings".  "Good stuff!", I said.

"Wait a minute", I said! I could do that with Turk's Heads. For example, with properly sized steel rings and attention to the weaving,  a 4-Lead, X-Bight Turk's Head could incorporate one or more steel rings into the center of the weave. "Neat", I said.

I am sure this is old hat for most! But, thanks for pointing out the four strands.

In a desperate attempt to put this post "On Topic", I would name that Turk's Head a "Heavy Metal, Weaving variation of Steven's Coat of Arm's Border".  

Brian.

[Dan Lehman]

Thanks for pointing out the 4 strands. It brought the two "rings" back to my attention.  

The rings COULD be replaced with an actual knot, and thereby reduce the
number of ropes to two.
What knot?  A Fig.8, in the midst of flyping.  (Just tie a Fig.8 and fiddle with
it so that the ends make a turn around each other and then arc in a loop
(much like a ... ring!) around.  This would leave ONE rope making the
knot, the other reeved through it (pref. through the center).

(-;

[Willeke]

Whatever the name, I like knotted borders.

Willeke