Just got back from camping and I have knot questions

[Carpaccio]

Hello,

I just got back from camping and I have a few questions about tying up a tarp over our campsite.  I have spent many hours on the net trying to find the best knots to use and I think I've found one that works best (the Taut-line Hitch), but the others are questionable and I'm hoping someone can give me some guidance.

I've been on two recent camping trips where I tied a tarp over the campsite to shield us from rain, but wanted to know what the best way to do so was.

I am tying one end of the tarp about two to four feet higher than the other to allow runoff.  My questions are concerning which knots to use and which ends to tie up first.

If you'll picture a tarp like a sheet of notebook paper that runs longways top to bottom and number the upper left corner Corner 1 and, going clockwise, Corners 2 through 4, with Corner 4 being in the lower left corner, I'll refer to these corners with numbers to make it easy.  My goal with this tarp is to have Corners 1 and 2 be the higher end of the tarp and Corners 3 and 4 be the lower end of the tarp.

First I tie my cord to Corner 1 using a Siberian Hitch.  I think there's a better knot for this.  What should I use to simply tie the cord to the corner?  By the way, I don't use the grommets, I bunch the tarp up just behind the grommet and tie the cord around this bunch.  I do the same thing with Corners 2, 3, and 4.

Next, I take the free end of the cord tied to Corner 1 and tie a rock to it.  Which knot should I use here?  Then, I throw this rock over a high branch (usually about 20-40 feet in the air depending on what I need and the available branches).  I then walk around the tree three times then tie the cord to itself (using a made up knot that's probably not even a real knot but sort of does the job) just above my head.  What is the best knot to use here?  It's probably really simple, but I have not found any knot on the net that says it's for this use.

Next, I tie the free end of the cord on Corner 3 to a tree as high as I can reach using Taut-line Hitch and I adjust it as tight as I can.  I think this is the best knot for this use since it's adjustable, but feel free to recommend a better one if you know of one.

Next, I tie the free end of the cord on Corner 2 high up in a tree over a branch just like with Corner 1.  

Finally, I tie the free end of the cord on Corner 4 to a tree with a Taut-line Hitch just like with Corner 4 and adjust it as tight as I can.

Is there a better knot system I could use?

Is there a better order I should use when tying up the corners of the tarp?  (this might be a better question for a camping forum, but I thought I'd ask anyway)

Thanks so much for your help!

[sharky]

A lot of the knots used depend on the type of cordage. For example, taut line hitches are a great camping knot, but if you use any cordage that starts with poly...you will find that almost all hitches will slip. What kind of cordage are you using?

[DerekSmith]

Hi Carpaccio,

Welcome.  Sorry I cannot help, I just stopped by to say thank you for introducing me to a new knot - the Siberian Hitch - now lodged in the little grey cells as the 'double slipped fig. of eight', and for putting me back into contact with outdooridiots.com,  (via the Wikipedia article for Siberian) a site I came across a while back, then lost the link.  It is one of those rare sites that promotes ingenuity without being full of itself.

Looking at your methods, it seems you have just about got the whole process perfected.  One question though - why do you bunch up the tarp to tie to it instead of using the grommets?  I lost a bit of my barn roof a few weeks back and put a tarp over it to keep out the snow.  I used the cheap blue 6mm 3 strand poly rope, and put short eye splices through the grommets, then tied the ends down with truckers hitches.  Using the grommets let me lash down the tarp without too many bags and wrinkles, but even so, the wind kept flogging the tarp against the roof.  Isn't it worse with wrinkles made by bunching the tarp first?

Derek

[roo]

Hello,

I just got back from camping and I have a few questions about tying up a tarp over our campsite.  I have spent many hours on the net trying to find the best knots to use and I think I've found one that works best (the Taut-line Hitch), but the others are questionable and I'm hoping someone can give me some guidance.

I've been on two recent camping trips where I tied a tarp over the campsite to shield us from rain, but wanted to know what the best way to do so was.

I am tying one end of the tarp about two to four feet higher than the other to allow runoff.  My questions are concerning which knots to use and which ends to tie up first.

If you'll picture a tarp like a sheet of notebook paper that runs longways top to bottom and number the upper left corner Corner 1 and, going clockwise, Corners 2 through 4, with Corner 4 being in the lower left corner, I'll refer to these corners with numbers to make it easy.  My goal with this tarp is to have Corners 1 and 2 be the higher end of the tarp and Corners 3 and 4 be the lower end of the tarp.

First I tie my cord to Corner 1 using a Siberian Hitch.  I think there's a better knot for this.  What should I use to simply tie the cord to the corner?  By the way, I don't use the grommets, I bunch the tarp up just behind the grommet and tie the cord around this bunch.  I do the same thing with Corners 2, 3, and 4.

Next, I take the free end of the cord tied to Corner 1 and tie a rock to it.  Which knot should I use here?  Then, I throw this rock over a high branch (usually about 20-40 feet in the air depending on what I need and the available branches).  I then walk around the tree three times then tie the cord to itself (using a made up knot that's probably not even a real knot but sort of does the job) just above my head.  What is the best knot to use here?  It's probably really simple, but I have not found any knot on the net that says it's for this use.

Next, I tie the free end of the cord on Corner 3 to a tree as high as I can reach using Taut-line Hitch and I adjust it as tight as I can.  I think this is the best knot for this use since it's adjustable, but feel free to recommend a better one if you know of one.

Next, I tie the free end of the cord on Corner 2 high up in a tree over a branch just like with Corner 1. 

Finally, I tie the free end of the cord on Corner 4 to a tree with a Taut-line Hitch just like with Corner 4 and adjust it as tight as I can.

I've heard of people putting a smooth rock in a pocket of tarp, and tying around it.  Many hitches could work.  Try out some of these:

http://notableknotindex.webs.com/sailorhitches.html
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/pilehitch.html
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/slippedbuntline.html
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/timberhitch.html
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/gnathitch.html

I haven't seen your rock or throwing object.  I think I focus on finding an object that's easy to tie to.  A small chunky piece of wood would be better than a roundish rock.

Without seeing your "tying a rope to itself scenario", I can't make a good recommendation.  Geometry and angles make a difference, and there might be another approach altogether.   I'd be inclined to tie a simple hitch to a separate branch or anchor near the ground so I don't have to reeeeeach to tie and untie it. 

The tautline hitch isn't very secure.  A more secure tensioner would be a Versatackle or some variant of it:

http://notableknotindex.webs.com/Versatackle.html

[Carpaccio]

A lot of the knots used depend on the type of cordage. For example, taut line hitches are a great camping knot, but if you use any cordage that starts with poly...you will find that almost all hitches will slip. What kind of cordage are you using?

I'm sorry, I should have mentioned that.  I'm using 550 cord.

[Carpaccio]

Hi Carpaccio,

Welcome.  Sorry I cannot help, I just stopped by to say thank you for introducing me to a new knot - the Siberian Hitch - now lodged in the little grey cells as the 'double slipped fig. of eight', and for putting me back into contact with outdooridiots.com,  (via the Wikipedia article for Siberian) a site I came across a while back, then lost the link.  It is one of those rare sites that promotes ingenuity without being full of itself.

Looking at your methods, it seems you have just about got the whole process perfected.  One question though - why do you bunch up the tarp to tie to it instead of using the grommets?  I lost a bit of my barn roof a few weeks back and put a tarp over it to keep out the snow.  I used the cheap blue 6mm 3 strand poly rope, and put short eye splices through the grommets, then tied the ends down with truckers hitches.  Using the grommets let me lash down the tarp without too many bags and wrinkles, but even so, the wind kept flogging the tarp against the roof.  Isn't it worse with wrinkles made by bunching the tarp first?

Derek

Glad I could be of some aid with the Siberian.

I bunch the tarp up and tie behind the grommets because I find it's much stronger than using the grommets themselves.  Another way to do it is to wrap the corner over a small rock or stick, bunch the tarp up past this wrap, then tie it off to there.  This will far outlast the grommet.  But, you're right, it doesn't look as good.  If wrinkles are a concern, your method of using the grommets is the best one.

[Carpaccio]

Hello,

I just got back from camping and I have a few questions about tying up a tarp over our campsite.  I have spent many hours on the net trying to find the best knots to use and I think I've found one that works best (the Taut-line Hitch), but the others are questionable and I'm hoping someone can give me some guidance.

I've been on two recent camping trips where I tied a tarp over the campsite to shield us from rain, but wanted to know what the best way to do so was.

I am tying one end of the tarp about two to four feet higher than the other to allow runoff.  My questions are concerning which knots to use and which ends to tie up first.

If you'll picture a tarp like a sheet of notebook paper that runs longways top to bottom and number the upper left corner Corner 1 and, going clockwise, Corners 2 through 4, with Corner 4 being in the lower left corner, I'll refer to these corners with numbers to make it easy.  My goal with this tarp is to have Corners 1 and 2 be the higher end of the tarp and Corners 3 and 4 be the lower end of the tarp.

First I tie my cord to Corner 1 using a Siberian Hitch.  I think there's a better knot for this.  What should I use to simply tie the cord to the corner?  By the way, I don't use the grommets, I bunch the tarp up just behind the grommet and tie the cord around this bunch.  I do the same thing with Corners 2, 3, and 4.

Next, I take the free end of the cord tied to Corner 1 and tie a rock to it.  Which knot should I use here?  Then, I throw this rock over a high branch (usually about 20-40 feet in the air depending on what I need and the available branches).  I then walk around the tree three times then tie the cord to itself (using a made up knot that's probably not even a real knot but sort of does the job) just above my head.  What is the best knot to use here?  It's probably really simple, but I have not found any knot on the net that says it's for this use.

Next, I tie the free end of the cord on Corner 3 to a tree as high as I can reach using Taut-line Hitch and I adjust it as tight as I can.  I think this is the best knot for this use since it's adjustable, but feel free to recommend a better one if you know of one.

Next, I tie the free end of the cord on Corner 2 high up in a tree over a branch just like with Corner 1.  

Finally, I tie the free end of the cord on Corner 4 to a tree with a Taut-line Hitch just like with Corner 4 and adjust it as tight as I can.

I've heard of people putting a smooth rock in a pocket of tarp, and tying around it.  Many hitches could work.  Try out some of these:

http://notableknotindex.webs.com/sailorhitches.html
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/pilehitch.html
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/slippedbuntline.html
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/timberhitch.html

I haven't seen your rock or throwing object.  I think I focus on finding an object that's easy to tie to.  A small chunky piece of wood would be better than a roundish rock.

Without seeing your "tying a rope to itself scenario", I can't make a good recommendation.  Geometry and angles make a difference, and there might be another approach altogether.   I'd be inclined to tie a simple hitch to a separate branch or anchor near the ground so I don't have to reeeeeach to tie and untie it.  

The tautline hitch isn't very secure.  A more secure tensioner would be a Versatackle or some variant of it:

http://notableknotindex.webs.com/Versatackle.html

Thanks for your input.  I'll check out those hitches you recommended.  As for reaching to untie the knot, all the knots I tie when putting up the tarp are quick-release knots.  Concerning the "tying the cord to itself", I'll take a picture of what I'm talking about soon as post it so you can get a much better idea of what I'm talking about.  That would be easier than me trying to explain it as I don't think I'm doing a good job.  Thanks again!

[sharky]

The siberian hitch is a great knot for weak tarps or tarps where the grommets have ripped out. 550 cord should work well with the taut-line hitch, so it looks to me like you are in business...Did something similar when we lost an engine at sea once...used a cheap blue sheet tarp we had onboard, and made a bow sail that pulled us back to the island via wind power. Siberian hitch and taut-line hitched all the way. (Our ship is not a sail boat by the way)

[Carpaccio]

The siberian hitch is a great knot for weak tarps or tarps where the grommets have ripped out. 550 cord should work well with the taut-line hitch, so it looks to me like you are in business...Did something similar when we lost an engine at sea once...used a cheap blue sheet tarp we had onboard, and made a bow sail that pulled us back to the island via wind power. Siberian hitch and taut-line hitched all the way. (Our ship is not a sail boat by the way)

Thanks for your guidance.  So, should a taut-line hitch always be opposite a Siberian hitch?  I just don't see how you could tie two Siberian hitches opposite of each other and have it as tight as possible.

[Dan_Lehman]

I was hoping someone with a bit of geometry-figuring would make a suggestion
as to where the tarp ends up suspended if one side's anchor is 10metres up a
tree and the other is about 2 metres -- seems MIGHTY drafty cover, to me!   

For tying to the tarp, as you suggest, the grommets might not be well
made & anchored, so go to the tarp directly.  I'd run in & out of the
grommet, and inbetween put a coil around the bunched tarp, as a
friction gripping (but no way slipping, given the through-grommet
approach) distribution of the bite of the cord against the textile -- it
would have roughly half tension on each of two legs doing the wrapping,
and not bringing full load on one line around the material.  Then you
need to tie off the end, and you can use your Tautline or make a
Bowline with it.

You might also be able to treat the clump of tarp corner qua thick
rope, and tie a Double Sheet bend to it; but I think that this will
demand more of the material come into play and be crunched
(crunched father in from the corner) than the method you use
or which I've suggested above.

But I'm having a lot of trouble seeing how a tarp drawn tight
with a 30' high anchorage of one side is reasonable.

The tautline hitch (and any number of variants, but most surely
NOT a Versatackle!) works fine, yes?  Should you need a bit more
grip, you can guard it with a preceding Half-hitch or double
turn (i.e., as though starting to tie the hitch and then thinking
better of it and leaving the two turns there but reaching again
and THEN tying a full hitch to finish.  Question of the closing
HH of the Taut-line loosening?  -- put in a stopper knot in the
tail to, well, stop that.

Tying to the rock has the best solution as Roo suggests, of using
an enclosure to capture the rock, and then tying to that surely.
(I don't like any of Roo's suggested hitches for this; maybe the
variation of the Timber Hitch with a roundturn on the SPart so
to enable it to be cinched snug to the rock, but even that
leaves me worried about losing the rock (of course, shape
matters).  Moreover, the bag could hold not a rock but just
lose matter (sand, say), which we'd have much greater trouble
tying up (Monkey's fist, perhaps    ) !

Cheers,
--dl*

ps:  Carpaccio, you'd do well to Edit out the copy of ALLLL that
replied-to message text:  we have the long msg. in original form
and it's a nasty and sadly common habit many have of just spewing
stuff out in full again, all to add a single line or two.
Yep, RooToo!  (Most nasty in photo forums where entire large
images get copied to join "Nice shot, Glenda!" reply.  Nothing
a well-directed bolt of lightning couldn't clear up, but I got the
economy model computer which lacks that feature.)   

[sharky]

In answer to your question, yes, the taut-line hitch should be opposite the siberian hitch. You've done well and seem to be able to figure things out. Good job!!!

[roo]

Tying to the rock has the best solution as Roo suggests, of using
an enclosure to capture the rock, and then tying to that surely.
(I don't like any of Roo's suggested hitches for this; maybe the
variation of the Timber Hitch with a roundturn on the SPart so
to enable it to be cinched snug to the rock, but even that
leaves me worried about losing the rock (of course, shape
matters).  Moreover, the bag could hold not a rock but just
lose matter (sand, say), which we'd have much greater trouble
tying up (Monkey's fist, perhaps    ) !

You're criticizing something I did not remotely say.  Try re-reading my post more slowly.

ref: http://tinyurl.com/yfhts43

[Dan_Lehman]

Tying to the rock has the best solution as Roo suggests, of using
an enclosure to capture the rock, and then tying to that surely.
       -  -  -  -  -  -  -
(I don't like any of Roo's suggested hitches for this;
 ...
       -  -  -  -  -  -  -
Moreover, the bag could hold not a rock but just lo

• se matter (sand,

say), which we'd have much greater trouble tying up (Monkey's fist, perhaps    ) !

You're criticizing something I did not remotely say.  Try re-reading my post more slowly.

And praising something not said, either!  AND "lose"ing it, with my
loose reading & typing.

Okay, yes:  rock in tarp makes a nice clump to tie the neck of;
this sort of mechanism in fact has some marketed devices:  I have
some plastic knob-edged disks that are to be inserted into material
folded around it and then a U-shaped plastic device clamps around
the gathered *throat* of the material, snapping together and having
an eye to tie to -- works with e.g. a sheet, but maybe less well with
firmer material.

As for "try reading ...", yes,
but you can help out by copying and replying with some sense,
putting apt responses to excerpts of the replied-to text and not
gratuitously copying the entire post -- which we all have anyway
in the original.  "rock" obviously sent me off on the rope-toss;
had that response come under just an attribution excerpt of the
tying-to-corners text, the context might've kept me on track.

Now, has anyone come up with a sketch of a pulled-taut tarp
anchored from head-height (or higher) on on side to 30' opposite ?!!
I'm still baffled by this!

Btw, it occurs to me that there could be a different tactic in supporting
the tarp:  have the rope run in an X through the grommets/corners,
such that the tension in the (skeletal, foundational) rope can be much
greater than that in the spread-over-it tarp:  e.g., use inline stoppers
at the one (higher) side against which grommets will fetch, and then
(with some auxiliary cordage) tie some taut-line/rolling hitches to pull
down the opposite side -- tension spreading the tarp thus being kept
independent from that of the skeleton upon which it rests.
(One could use a cross-rope between parallel side ropes, too --the
cross-rope joined with knots (Rolling hitches) that could serve qua
stoppers for the tarp (possibly tied initially as Cloves to anchor and
stop, and Clove ends run out to Rolling hitches on the guy lines
to secure the Cloves from slipping w/tarp pressure on them.  And
with this structure, one has essentially a rope outline of the
tarp, and edges could be rolled around the outlining rope and
clothes-pinned in place.   YMMV.   campsite license might've
expired by time all this gets erected ("the trip is the value, not
the destination").)

--dl*
====

[roo]

As for "try reading ...", yes,
but you can help out by copying and replying with some sense,
putting apt responses to excerpts of the replied-to text and not
gratuitously copying the entire post -- which we all have anyway
in the original.  "rock" obviously sent me off on the rope-toss;
had that response come under just an attribution excerpt of the
tying-to-corners text, the context might've kept me on track.

No problem, Dan.  I thought I made it clear that I thought it was a bad choice to use a rock as a throwing object with rope.  And I can't imagine throwing a whole tarp over a branch for the sake of piloting a line.

As for copying the entire post as reference in my response, you're not expected to re-read it, and the yellow background and small font should keep anyone from unnecessary wading.   The only people who would re-read it are people who are doing post-specfic searches, and don't want to scroll backwards to figure out what is being discussed.

Now, has anyone come up with a sketch of a pulled-taut tarp
anchored from head-height (or higher) on on side to 30' opposite ?!!
I'm still baffled by this!

Maybe the 30' branch is some distance from the tarp.  If so, the top edge of the tarp could be significantly lower.  You don't always have trees exactly where you need them.

Btw, it occurs to me that there could be a different tactic in supporting
the tarp:  have the rope run in an X through the grommets/corners,
such that the tension in the (skeletal, foundational) rope can be much
greater than that in the spread-over-it tarp:  e.g., use inline stoppers
at the one (higher) side against which grommets will fetch, and then
(with some auxiliary cordage) tie some taut-line/rolling hitches to pull
down the opposite side -- tension spreading the tarp thus being kept
independent from that of the skeleton upon which it rests.
(One could use a cross-rope between parallel side ropes, too --the
cross-rope joined with knots (Rolling hitches) that could serve qua
stoppers for the tarp (possibly tied initially as Cloves to anchor and
stop, and Clove ends run out to Rolling hitches on the guy lines
to secure the Cloves from slipping w/tarp pressure on them.  And
with this structure, one has essentially a rope outline of the
tarp, and edges could be rolled around the outlining rope and
clothes-pinned in place.   YMMV.   campsite license might've
expired by time all this gets erected ("the trip is the value, not
the destination").)

I've mentioned in passing before, but I'm not confident of the Midshipman/Tautline family's security in potentially dynamic loading as a result of wind.   Then again, his rope isn't terribly slick or stiff.... and it's just a tarp, so loosening wouldn't likely be too disasterous, unless it allows rain to puddle up in great quanitities or if it allows a campfire spark to make the tarp holey. .

I kinda like the idea of putting a pebble anchor in the center of the tarp to provide a way to pull up a vertex to the tarp to prevent sagging and puddling.

P.S.  There is a way to tension a tarp without any tensioning knots at all:  Hang weights from the ropes coming off the tall branches and let them dangle at a convenient elevation.  Pull down on the weights, and the friction will maintain more tension than the weight alone.

ref: http://notableknotindex.webs.com/friction.html

[Andy]

Hi Carpaccio,


Nice to hear from a fellow camper!

I spend a lot of time tying tarps of all sizes and thicknesses. In fact just came back from a one-month "back-to-earth" camp out in the NZ mountains.

- In agreement about the rock for many tarps if there will be lots of wind.
- One beautiful trick for large tarps is to tie the rope to the tarp, then the other end of the rope to a bicycle tube, then that tube to a rope that goes to the ground. That gives the necessary elasticity in heavy wind so the tarp doesn't rip. Bungee cords (aka ockey straps) are acceptable too.
- I don't recommend rocks to tie tarps if there's going to be any wind. For large tarps, it pays to make your own stakes (2 to 3-foot long) using straight wood and a tomahawk and to drive them in with a sledge hammer or the back of an axe.
- My favorite knot in the tautline family is the "adjustable grip hitch" that I learned from Dave Root's site.
http://asiteaboutnothing.net/cr_knots.html?#adjustable-grip-hitch
- For tying to the stake, I often use a "quickie truckie":
http://asiteaboutnothing.net/cr_knots.html?#truckies-knot
- With extra high winds, it's not uncommon to have a second "bracing stake" (shorter than the first), crossing the first, and to tie the two stakes together
- Having secured the tarp, one of the best protections is to throw another rope (or several) *over and across* the tarp in places where the wind might pick it up and inflate it like a sail, which might rip all your stakes.
- There are a million great ways of securing a tarp. One frequent feature is to have a long post come from the ground and poke the tarp from the bottom to make a high pointy roof (helpful for height and, to some extent, to keep water from collecting in pockets). In that case you'll want a bucket / jar at the end of the stick that lifts the tarp so it doesn't pierce it. The stick can be buried, balanced, or I like to make it a tripod so you can hang things over a fire.
- Wind direction must be considered when choosing the high side
- For throwing a stick I've fallen in love with Derek's coil-twist-loop method of tying a quick constrictor (then tying it to the stick)
http://asiteaboutnothing.net/cr_constrictor.html
- About these million ways of erecting a tarp: will look around for picture. For large tarps, it's common to have two tripods outside the tarp, in the middle, and a rope running between the two tripods then to the ground. That gives a slant. In that case, on the sides, you can go straight to the ground, or, better, to high stakes. It's also common to bury posts (say 9) and have long poles across the top, as in a roof architecture. Or to use trees, vans, etc

Well that's it for now, other ideas might arise

Wishing you a beautiful weekend

Andy