The Highwayman's Hitch for Abseiling

[IGKT_Member]

I have a question about the highwayman's hitch. I work for a telecommunications company where some colleagues have to climb up telecommunications towers as part of their job functions. One colleague once attended a rescue training where the trainor demonstrated the use of a knot to tie a rope to be used for abseiling to a part of the tower, and with both ends extending all the way to the ground; and which could be untied, once the person is on the ground, by pulling on one end of the rope, which would save the person the trouble of climbing back up the tower to untie it.

My colleague was talking about it one day and I asked him to describe the knot, which turned out to be the Highwayman's Hitch. My question is, is it really safe to use the Highwayman's Hitch in this way? I read that it is good for tethering animals, but is it safe to use in abseiling/rappeling?

[KnotNow!]

NO!  Just came in off a 20 hour day, but the short answer is "NO!".   There are some awsome arborists sites as well as some climbing sites so you can see what is currently in use by people who climb all the time (not that tower people don't climb all the time).  If you have both tails (working and standing) why not use both with no knot at all at the top?  Just put a bight over the attachment and use both tails to descend.  Of course I am always wrong at the top of my lungs and when this tired...  :-/

[roo]

My colleague was talking about it one day and I asked him to describe the knot, which turned out to be the Highwayman's Hitch. My question is, is it really safe to use the Highwayman's Hitch in this way? I read that it is good for tethering animals, but is it safe to use in abseiling/rappeling?

It's not even a good hitch for tethering animals.  The technique described is a good way to get yourself killed for a number of reasons.  You can search Google groups (rec.crafts.knots) for a discussion of this topic.  

[Dan_Lehman]

The Highwayman's Hitch is a case of a half-baked idea poorly done.

As others have questioned, what is the point of having a releasable hitch
vs. just reeving the rope over something, using both ends, then hauling
it down with one?  --perhaps there's an answer (such as one actually has
two ropes, and want to use just one to rappel its near-full length, and so
the other facilitates retrieval, avoiding mis-matched-ropes problems with
a descending device).

So, beyond the "half-baked idea" aspect, comes particular implementation:
the High.H. is bad because, in many common circumstances (materials and
relative dia. of cordage & object), it is vulnerable to capsizing.  This is because
the most heavily loaded part--viz., the SPart--, bears upon the slip-tuck toggle
bight, and can force it through the toggled-against frame [my terms].
--esp. on relatively large-dia. objects.
But the implemenation (knot) need not have this vulnerability.  A first step
towards redressing this weakness is to have the slip-tuck locked by a less
forcefully loaded part; another step it to improve the nature of the frame.
In Clyde Soles's book, Outdoor Knots, there is a quite similar knot
presented (named by what I call the entire class:  "Slip-Free Hitch")
that is much more stable.

Even with the High.H., one can improve upon it if, on the final step, one brings
the end around the SPart to tuck through the same bight FROM THE OPPOSITE
SIDE of the object!  Once one gets the general tactic for these knots,
one can play around and come up with some workable solutions.

Another like hitch is tied as follows (dubious w/rel.wide-dia objects):
bring a bight around the object and tuck its tip between the legs (SPart & end)
--like inserting a coin into a slot--; tuck this bight tip such that the SPart's
leg-side is closer to the object (makes tighter bend, and so will have more
load absorbed in rounding the object); then bring the END's leg around the
SPart on the away-from-tucked-tip side over the tucked tip and around
to tuck through the tucked bight-tip; snug up / set the knot.  This knot is
one discovered by myself & Peter Suber, fyi.  One can fortify it (make it more
secure/stable) by making a full turn of the finishing turn, or by making yet
another wrap & tuck into the slip-tuck's eye--as there can be some drawing
out of that slip-tuck if it alone wraps the SPart, depending on circumstances.

Canyoneers once employed a slip-free hitch named "the Macrame' Knot", but
I hear that this is not much used anymore--there are some prefabricated
release devices.  The MK had a series of tucks & nips, one rope into the other,
such that the release entailed a series of alternate-rope pulling, and thus
precluded a castastrophic accidental mis-loading on descent.

--dl*
====

[KnotNow!]

Hi Again,
 The arborist site is "treebuzz" and I can't remember the URL.  I hope this is all some sort of missunderstanding about the HH.  I woke up in a cold sweat from a nightmare about watching tower workers falling like leaves in autum.  The Highwayman's Hitch for towers?  Just say "NO!".  I hope to never meet someone who is rappeling of a tower.  By the by, I've been in telcom for 37 years so have seen some pretty silly stuff, but this is downright dangerous.  In issue 85 of Knotting Matters there is a fine article by Robert Chisnall and a photo of him at 1,100' on a tower.  Maybe he has some thoughts on this.

[knudeNoggin]

Perhaps Nautile can add this case to his set of knots nonsense
(in how many books does the Highwayman's Hitch get promoted
blindly?).

Chisnall's article is in #86 (not 85), btw.  And some arborist sites are as
noted www.treebuzz.com (buzz board has the forums) and www.arboristsite.com
(with a climbing forum among others).

I suppose we should look at the strong cautions expressed and ask Where
are all the accidents from this bad knot?  In some cases, one might not
know (there would be an injured (or worse) party and fallen rope); but in
others one would have witnesses likely aware of the procedure & knot.
But I am no fan of the hitch (as noted above, there are better alternatives).


*knudeNoggin*

[KnotNow!]

You may ask "where are the reports of accidents"?  The same telco fellows will go into a manhole with toxic gas, pass out and then the safety watcher will go into the same hole and die too!  In one instance one more chap went down to die with his fellows.  I am not sure a lack of reported failures is an indication that it hasn't happened.  Perhaps it hasn't happend "much".  Perhaps it was reported as "slipped on a bar of soap and fell."  How about the telco guy who left his mep gas torch burning in his hilift bucket truck and it mercifully went out.  When he relit it he really RELIT IT.  People do dumb things and only the lucky few get to report how it actually happend...... (and then how many will say "I made a mistake!")  Not that telco guys are dumb.  They aren't.  But watch the mistakes that they and the Power guys make getting service back in the gulf coast.  Fatigue will set in.  But at least we mostly don't teach men to go into manholes until tested and vented, climb poles until checked for rot or use the HH to lower themselves.

[KnotNow!]

Oh, by the way I've looked through all my Bell System Practices (a bit outdate) and can't find the HH.  Does someone have it in a printed BSP that recomends it?  Mostly we are not allowed to ... well, let us just say do anything.... unless it is in the "Practice".  Is this thread "hear-say"?

[Jimbo_The_Kinky]

I have a question about the highwayman's hitch.

An innocuous introduction to a terrifying question.

I work for a telecommunications company ... climb up telecommunications towers ... One colleague once attended a rescue training

Could you please tell us which rescue training, so we'll know where NOT to spend our money?  TIA!

where the trainor demonstrated the use of a knot to tie a rope to be used for abseiling to a part of the tower

Okay, that gets interesting.  Abseiling from where to what part of the tower??  That subtle point could make for a useful "jumping off point" (pun oh-so-definitely intended) for a discussion of Life Overhead...

Why would one want to abseil off a tower anyway, as the means of climbing up should be equally available on the way down, right?  Otherwise, how do you get up there to tie your trick knot?

In any case, an abseil used to imply a doubled rope anyway, so the whole question struck me as strange.  I've done this, and I just draped the rope over the frob at the top & hauled one side down after I was securely afoot.  When the doubled rope doesn't reach, I stop short, tie off, and reposition over another frob (bough, chock, piton, the cook's leg, whatever) for the next section...  this is very confusing.  You even said:

with both ends extending all the way to the ground

which means you don't have to tie anything at the top...  Is this a trick question??

and which could be untied, once the person is on the ground, by pulling on one end of the rope

Well, you actually answered yourself earlier.  If both ends make it to the ground, just pull one.  And find another Rescue Training provider!!!!

... describe the knot, which turned out to be the Highwayman's Hitch... good for tethering animals, but is it safe to use in abseiling/rappeling?

Here's basically how the Highwayman's Hitch "works"^*:
First, you take a young horse, as it's being "broken" (something only someone with an IQ less than a horse's would have to do), and tie it to a rail, with a b@$tard knot -- one that's so hard to untie, not even a mouthy horse with opposable thumbs can do it.  Watch until they quit bothering to try getting themselves loose, and then, some while later, they'll be ready to accept the Highwayman's Hitch without mouthing it.  This is also (BTW) why the circus can tie huge elephants with a wee rope you & I could break.  They start with a humongous rope when the elephant is wee, and watch for it to "get used to it".
(You'll give up your Human Rights and your Dignity the same way.  You'll "go along to get along" until you have nothing left.  But by then you'll be used to having no Liberty, you'll think peeing for a job is "okay", you'll hand over your guns and your children and your paycheck & shut your mouth "just because"... So maybe humans aren't so "evolved" after all...  But I digress.)

I'm going to have to "go along" with our illustrious PABPRES on this one.  Just say "NO!" to dangerous knot tricks.

^*(Would it be any better if I just said "It's called Operant Conditioning.  Look into it."??)

[Jimbo_The_Kinky]

You may ask "where are the reports of accidents"?  The same telco fellows will go into a manhole with toxic gas, pass out and then the safety watcher will go into the same hole and die too!  In one instance one more chap went down to die with his fellows.  I am not sure a lack of reported failures is an indication that it hasn't happened.

Uh...  That was in Swansea, SC; and it was septic tank workers.

And we wonder why the world thinks we're stupid...

(PS: This has already been submitted to The Darwin Awards.)

[KnotNow!]

Hi Jimbo,   Off thread a bit but my reference really was telco guys and I found it in a telco safety report.  So now at least two trades have found a quick way to die.  Again off thread but a telco man was up a pole and got into the hot wire.  His safety man went up to "save" him and got electrocuted too.  I guess if there is a lesson in all this is that if the boss says "Oh sure we always do it this way."  you should think for yourself.  If your partner is in trouble just do your job... call for help.  I am often frustrated by the harness and the tail... but it beats the heck out of having your knees jammed into your armpits or worse.  This post has cost me sleep as I keep dreaming of freefall when putting an ascender or prussic on one line only to have the HH fail and drop me like a stone.  The only cure for this nightmare will be to play with the knot a bit and see if it capsizes and locks (rendering the fancy retrevial impossible) or capsizes, slips and kills me in my dream.

[KnotNow!]

I found time to play with the HH under strain.  Well, fortunately it almost always jams.  The exceptions being when it can capsize and drop me like a stone.  You have two options:  It capsizes, jams and defeats the intent or it capsizes, doesn't jam and lets you down in a hurry.  There are so many nice slipped hitches where the line passes over the attachment so that if the hitch were to fail at least a the line is over the top.  If you use the HH for this purpose please keep your insurance paid in full.  Can you "name names and quote publications" on this "recommended" foolishness?  The more I think about it the less I think there is such a reference.   I'll leave this thread to others.

[Willeke]

Every time I read this thread I have the feeling that the knot the instructors teach/were supposed to teach is an other than the Highwayman Hitch.

Since it seems a usefull thing, being able to undo your lines from the ground, people will remember that this trick does excists and look for the right knot, at this time finding that 'not to be trusted' HH.

Can you propose an other knot that can be tied in the bight, used for decending on one line and be undone from the ground by pulling on the other line? And if so, would it be sensible to have the lines running paralel, near to each other, or would it make sense to have the second, not to be put under stress line, running a little way apart so not the be able to pull on it while decending?

Willeke.

[Dan_Lehman]

Every time I read this thread I have the feeling that the knot the instructors teach/were supposed to teach is an other than the Highwayman Hitch.

I'm not sure that anyone has verified that this knot is actually taught.
There was reference to its being included in some supposed SAS guidebook,
but a look over some of that book made me wonder if the whole thing was a hoax.
Perhaps I could see some limited use to being able to release & drop the line
w/o pulling it through some anchor, but in general, not.
Eric Frye's book carried a note of some fireman supposedly dying from having
pulled on the release end (accidentally)--but how would one know this, for the result
is identical to the knot's capsizing & spilling?!

Since it seems a usefull thing, being able to undo your lines from the ground, people will remember that this trick does excists and look for the right knot, at this time finding that 'not to be trusted' H[wy]H.

It seems so, why?  --as opposed to pulling the line down through the anchor.
For rockclimbing, dropping the long bight of rope is a recipe for hooking it over some
protuberance--a risk.  And the risk of the release end being loaded inadvertently
at the wrong time should worry one.

Can you propose an other knot that can be tied in the bight, used for decending on one line and be undone from the ground by pulling on the other line?

I have done this already, above!?  --one such knot's been published (so you know
it must be good!   ) , and another is a simple variation on the HwyH.

--dl*
====