Author Topic: Kite bridle knots, need help  (Read 15303 times)

SSassen

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Kite bridle knots, need help
« on: September 07, 2005, 11:56:19 PM »
Hello all,

I've been building kites, ram-air inflatable mostly, as a hobby for a number of years and these kites contain a large number of knots in the bridles that keep the kite properly trimmed. I am currently looking for two knots that will allow me to do two things.

-      Omit the knots and loops used in the below image and replace it with one knot that has highest possible breaking strength >75%

Knot split: one to three line bridle
http://hardwareanalysis.com/images/articles/large/11576.jpg

-      Top right, omit the loop and knot and tie the line directly onto the loop sawn onto the kite, again with highest possible breaking strength.

Knot to loop
http://hardwareanalysis.com/images/articles/large/11577.jpg

If anybody has any suggestions I'd sure appreciate it. The knots as I have used now are causing way too much bridle drag and look a bit amateurish.

Regards,

Sander Sassen
ssassen(at)hardwareanalysis(dot)com

knudeNoggin

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Re: Kite bridle knots, need help
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2005, 09:08:15 AM »
Maybe a little more information will improve the responses.
Firstly, I think that your 1st-given .jpg has BOTH of the cases you cite:
the 3-leg bridle is there, but at left is the same loopknot-to-tape-eye(?)
that is on the right of the 2nd .jpg, yes?!  (And more clearly shown!)

In the present case, how are the knots tied.  By this I ask for how the right
lengths of the three bridle legs is achieved?  Currently, it appears that simple
Overhand loopknots are tied; then these three eyes are joined to a 4th such
knot in a Square-knot fashion.  But how does one ensure that, say, the left
bridle leg isn't too short (is there adjustment at the other end, or is the length
set upon tying the Overhand (and maybe these legs are tied off of the kite,
and then joined to the kite with the same Square knot interlooping, and the
4th Overhand loopknot can be tied through the gathered other 3's eyes?

One can conceive many solutions generally, with one knot joining the four
ends; but the tying of particular knots might recommend some over others.
(E.g., one could make a sort of multiple sheet bend, or put the four together
as one big fat Overhand/Ring bend!  And so on ... .)

What is the material like?  It appears to be pretty flexible, braided and pretty
compressible/flattening cord.  (Is it HMPE?)  Those long-sewn eyes in the 2nd
.jpg are going to be hard to beat, in strength!!
And as for strength of the knots, there's some speculation we can do, but the
hard data on such isn't much around, especially of the cases at hand.  Do you
know of any for the particular knots & cord you use?  (Too often one sees
people extending limited test results into really foreign, unlike cases.)

For the cord-to-sewn-loop (tape?) case, that is a small eye of tape you show,
right?  The current knot must have much less drag than this tape piece.

Oh, another question:  is any of the knots (well, if you get your 1-knot solution,
THE knot) expected to be UNtied (after use)?  Say, to separate the kite (with
bridles) from the long flying line?  (In the presented case, I'd guess that the
Overhands are pretty strongly set and not untiable practically; but the Square
joint might be able to be loosened (then what, cut the long-line's loop?).

*knudeNoggin*

ps:  Will Macs be better with Intel Inside ?
« Last Edit: September 08, 2005, 09:12:31 AM by knudeNoggin »

SSassen

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Re: Kite bridle knots, need help
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2005, 11:20:22 AM »
Thanks knudeNoggin,

Quote
Firstly, I think that your 1st-given .jpg has BOTH of the cases you cite:
the 3-leg bridle is there, but at left is the same loopknot-to-tape-eye(?)
that is on the right of the 2nd .jpg, yes?!  (And more clearly shown!)


That's correct, an overhand knot is used to create a loop, the loops are then joined with larkshead knots to create the 3-leg bridle. All knots are similar throughout the bridle. See the 2nd image, right most loop in the picture is a the knot and loop used throughout the kite. And yes, that loop sewn into the kite is the same.

All lengths are predefined on a bridle rig, and then the positions where the bridle should be tied to the kite are marked with a permanent marker. So no adjustments are necessary, hence it doesn't matter whether the knot can be untied or not, as this is the final bridle setup, prototypes did use the overhand/larkshead setup for ease of use and adjustment.

Material used indeed is HMPE or Dyneema/Spectra with a 150lbs breaking strength. The line is very smooth and thin (0.5mm), and will work itself free out of every low friction knot. I use this line simply because it is the thinnest available, and with about 100ft of bridle line in a kite, every mm counts, and affects bridle drag.

Looking forward to your reply,

Sander Sassen
ssassen(at)hardwareanalysis(dot)com

Ps. doubt Macs will be better with 'Intel Inside', not with current Intel CPUs, as they can't keep up with AMD's, not for the past three years actually.

SSassen

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Re: Kite bridle knots, need help
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2005, 12:48:25 PM »
To illustrate things further please look at the below noted image. These are the knots I tried thusfar. The A-knot is something I thought up myself, but that comes lose under strain, but looks nice, is small, and has a very smooth finish (so it will not cause for other bridle lines to get caught behind the knot).

The B-knot is a very basic knot, it works just fine, it however is bulky and lines can get caught behind the small loop sticking out, or behind the entire knot.

The C-knot is a knot that's often used when bridling kites, my experience is that it reduces breaking strength considerably though, which is not what I'm looking for.

Various bridle knots
http://hardwareanalysis.com/images/articles/large/11578.jpg

Best regards,

Sander Sassen
ssassen(at)hardwareanalysis(dot)com

knudeNoggin

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Re: Kite bridle knots, need help
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2005, 08:56:27 PM »
Thanks for the information.

Quote
That's correct, an overhand knot is used to create a loop, the loops are then joined with larkshead knots to create the 3-leg bridle.

"Larkshead" & "girth" get used here where they don't really belong, and in rockclimbing
also.  It might be that the knot is somewhat tied in a Girth-hitch fashion,
but the effective, set shape is that of a Square knot (in rope; rockclimbers use it
for joining slings of tape, and there the knot is asymmetric in actual material
geometry (it is hard to work out a symmetric form)).  I.e., the closing part
between the two loop legs making this hitch doesn't bind around them, but
around the opposing legs & vice versa.  Better to not have one knotname denote
such different structures!

Quote
All lengths are predefined on a bridle rig, and then the positions where the bridle should be tied to the kite are marked with a permanent marker. So no adjustments are necessary, hence it doesn't matter whether the knot can be untied or not, as this is the final bridle setup,

... and one doesn't disconnect the long line from the kite, for storage or
replacement (or maybe we are not seeing even so far as the long line?)?

Quote
Material used indeed is HMPE or Dyneema/Spectra with a 150lbs breaking strength.

It is almost surprising to hear the it can be so weak!  But, yes, at 0.5mm!!!
Now there comes a tougher tying issue, working with such a small dimension.

Quote
The line is very smooth and thin (0.5mm), and will work itself free out of every low friction knot.

In the knots that you show later (red & blue cord), I take it that the blue cord
represents a third of its part, i.e. one of the three eyes.  But we are looking to
replace that structure with perhaps a single knot.

Quote
The A-knot is something I thought up myself, but that comes lose under strain, but looks nice, is small, and has a very smooth finish (so it will not cause for other bridle lines to get caught behind the knot).

This is a (dble) Strangle Knot/hitch, aka Nail Knot (given how you've effected its
tying) by anglers.  I'm a little surprised that it loosens; one could give it a few more
wraps.  But there are similar structures that might work better.

Knot-B is what I gave as an example of a single knot, although you refer to a loop
catching things, and in my conception there is no loop, as the ends from the 3
bridle legs are untied.  So, one would have three ends vice the loop, on that side,
and one end (and 3 legs) on the other.  But it is large around.

Knot-C I think would be stronger were the single line brought far into the
tying and its wraps around itself going back.

Do you know the Blood Knot?  (an angler's knot)  Each end passes the other,
and then is wrapped back around the passed lines to be tucked down between
them in the center.  Although one source found this old knot to be weak in some
of the "gel-spun" HMPE fishing lines, I think it might not be so in the kite cord
and given the amount of material in play (the heavily loaded single line wrapping
around 3 opposed lines, not merely one; the 3 in turn having only need of
about 1/3 strength in opposition, but also wrapping around several parts (they
wrap around themselves)).

But precise measurement might be more of a challenge.  Security should be fine.
Aerodynamic aspects should be good, with a relatively thin, single knot, and
no doubled lines beyond (i.e., not the twin legs of loopknots leading to the statellite
Overhands).

At the cord-to-tape (kite) end, one can try a similar sort of structure, a sort of
adaptation/extension of a Lapp Bend.  Especially if one can perhaps fold the tape
in order to provide a both firmer & trimmer U-shape for tying to.

Bring the cord near-parallel diagonally across the tape U; wrap cord back around
all parts once, twice, then around just the leading U side and itself going thus
down through the bight/U and around again & down.  The U's tip will nip the
end of the cord tucked down through it (twice (or more)); the wraps will bind
the cord at the other end and prevent loosening; and the wraps should also
help reduce the aero-profile of the tape some!?
AND the tying of this knot can be done to effect some length-adjustment of
each leg (assuming that the bridle joint to long line/connector is done prior).
This would be like you Knot-B, but with the red cord 1) not going through the
tape's U, and then instead of being tucked out through its own wraps, it would
be down & around the red & near blue parts, twice.  (For cord-to-cord, it might
be better to begin through the U as done with your Strangle hitch, and so is an
option for that end of things, though it means that you still have the 3 Overhand
loopknots for each bridle leg.)

*knudeNoggin*

SSassen

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Re: Kite bridle knots, need help
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2005, 09:56:46 PM »
Thanks KnudeNoggin,

What you are seeing indeed is only part of the bridle. In kite terms, all lines that are tied to the kite are called the primary bridles, those connecting to the primaries are called the secondary bridles. What I've shown are the primary and secondary and the knots connecting them. The secondary are sleeved (with a braided polyester sleeve) and stitched at the end to secure them and have a single overhand knot at the end to tie the kite flying line to. The kite flying line is then attached to it with (pardon my mis-use of terminology) a larkshead, which can be easily removed for easy storage of kite and kite flying lines.

The blue/red line examples are showing exactly what I'm looking for ie. one secondary bridle going to the stitched sleeve on one end and three primary bridles going to the kite tapeloop. I used blue/red sleeving line as the diameter of the actual line and the uniform color make it almost impossible to see what the finished knot looks like, the contrast between blue/red makes it very easy to see.

I'm familiar with the bloodknot, but that doesn't work well with this line, I tried that already. For example the A-knot I listed actually pulls inself inside out when pressure is applied to it. Or rather the blue line pulls the top of the red knot inwards, so it becomes untied. This is mostly due to the very smooth line, if I use the sleeving line as pictured you can't do this, there's simply too much friction.

I've been sitting here for 20-mins trying to tie the knot you described, but I'm afraid I failed in my attempts, a picture would really help a lot. Also below is an image of one of the kites in flight, you can clearly see the bridles and large number of knots used and how everything comes together.

Kite bridles in flight
http://hardwareanalysis.com/images/articles/large/11579.jpg

Best regards,

Sander Sassen
ssassen(at)hardwareanalysis(dot)com





Jimbo_The_Kinky

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Re: Kite bridle knots, need help
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2005, 04:46:02 AM »
Hi,

I've been making "kites" out of C0CKtail napkins, heavy nylon mono, and sewing thread for a little while now, the better to keep the neices entertained on rainy days.

And we sometimes use "kites" while trolling to keep our bait at the surface for dolphins, marlin, etc.

These kites you are working with look like a lot more fun!  I stand in awe, yeahbuddy!!

Since I'm still struggling with the concept, could I ask a quick question:

You mentioned that the finished bridles won't need much adjustment.  I was wondering if you could use some kind of splice instead?  You already have shown us sewn loops, so why not take the concept of an eye splice a step further and put both your "outsides" (the fore and aft lines) into your "middle" in the std. fashion of an eye-splice for that type of cordage?  Call it a "Double Y-splice", to help convey the concept.

It looks as if you're using a single braid, a-la "ski rope"??  That's popular here in the Southern climes.  We can triple up like that by sticking ends in together, and if they must be absolutely locked together, they can be sewn easily enough.  I've actually stuck three into one (for a four-way), but that was a long time ago, and it was really more of a "one here, one there" arrangement.

If you must, you could stick the ends through, down a few pics, then back through, then down inside for the "chinese handcuff" part a-la a "Brummel Eye Splice".

The result would be fair, permanent, and "pretty" (eyes of the beholder and all that), especially if you whipped the throats; and if you put a wee eye in the "bitter end" where your flying cord (nomenclature apologies proffered) attaches, you could still rig & re-rig at your pleasure, with naught but a simple bend...

Another Q:  Are these the kind of "kites" that lift people??  I'm sold!  Want one now!  Oooooo!

("thingytail"??  This silly YABB s/w can't see "c o c k t a i l" as a unique, non-profane word, and changes it to "thingytail".  <walks away muttering> )
« Last Edit: September 11, 2005, 01:22:23 AM by Jimbo_The_Kinky »

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Kite bridle knots, need help
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2005, 09:14:22 AM »
Quote

The blue/red line examples are showing exactly what I'm looking for ie. one secondary bridle going to the stitched sleeve on one end and three primary bridles going to the kite tapeloop.

But you said that you wanted to replace the several knots at the bridles' joint
(secondary to primary; 1 to 3) with a single knot:  neither of your red/blue knots
is like this--rather, they're of a single line (red) to a bight (blue)!?
Or am I missing the point:  that what you're doing is running what I have (mis)taken
as the red line's end and treated it as the 3rd leg of the kite bridle(!)?
(But that then is a signficant change from the state-of-the-practice, where the
three legs end in eyes that are collectively tied to by the secondary bridle line.)

Quote
I'm familiar with the bloodknot, but that doesn't work well with this line, I tried that already.

What I take to be suggested is making a multi-line Blood Knot with the 3 lines
opposing the one secondary line.  I could see one even having each of the 3 lines
make a wrap, *stacked* as it were, in line, or else the three being adjacent in making
the wraps together.  Is this what you've tried?
(Here there could be problems re length adjustment/correctness.)

Quote
I've been sitting here for 20-mins trying to tie the knot you described, ...

You have an image that should help with what's suggested--image A3.
Following KnudeNoggin's instructions to the "... once, twice" re wraps,
then the red end  wraps & binds just the upper blue leg (of your picture) and
itself, so where in your image it is tucked out through its own coils, it would
instead wrap leftwards around the red & blue parts lying almost as one, again
in your photo.  The blue eye will snug down to clamp the end secure, and the
setting of the knot will drawn the wraps down on top of the loaded parts.
However, this was suggested, I think, for the cord-to-tape hitch; the tape might
need to be folded, for good performance, and the red line might better not begin
through the (blue) eye.

As for that kite in flight, I recall seeing a fellow at the Smithsonian Kite Festival
have fun being pulled all around a field by such a kite, he on a 3-wheeled device.

--dl*
====

 

anything