Favorite Way to Tie Trucker's Hitch

[Keystoner]

Thank you.  I see that.  I'm working on my own sketches and discussion.

To be continued...

[diff_lock]

Here is some testing I have done. I would not trust the bell ringer knot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=dlAyTquJ_HM

Welcome to the forum.

You tested 3 TH's:

1. ABOK #172
It will work if the bight is held up while hauling the working end down.

2.  ABOK #172 + Half Hitch Lock -- Lee Bundy Style
I noticed this same collapse and pointed it out in Replies #183 and #188.  Notice that the TH still worked!  The pulley remained intact.  Good luck untying it though.  I have not experienced that collapse with thicker line and therefore would not extrapolate your results as a blanket dismissal of a Bell Ringer + Half Hitch lock Trucker's Hitch the way you have.  Andy uses a variation on a regular basis in real life applications and Knot4u mentioned his very robust testing earlier in the thread.  And don't forget, the great Lee Bundy uses it.

3.  ABOK #173
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drkcOzCjuuU
"Make sure you leave this one up and pull."

1. Are you saying I didn't? I held the bight up while initially loading the system. Then removed my hand to reposition myself and get a two hand grip on the cord to apply more force to the system. What should I do differently?

2. Lee Bundy does use the extra half hitch but he does not use the bell ringer as I have. He uses an elbow not a loop as used with the bell ringer. http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-UxNQ_VSs_2I/TqoW743xyGI/AAAAAAAAAP0/2WPY5vJ_3js/s1600/bight+loop+elbow+com.jpg

3.When I first applied load to the system the loop was pointing up (less than 45deg from the standing part of the tackle system). I will remake a video of this setup at your request, must be the same cord though as it is what I use and I have no need for stronger cord/rope. I have some 5mm (I think its 5mm) polyester but then my anchors (wooden loft bed and a chair) would fail before the knot (not tested, only speculated and I do not want to damage my furniture).
When using a truckers hitch (usually) your hands are doing other things and holding up a bight isn't always possible (just super sayian).

[Keystoner]

>> 1. Are you saying I didn't? I held the bight up while initially loading the system. Then removed my hand to reposition myself and get a two hand grip on the cord to apply more force to the system. What should I do differently?

Yes, that is what I'm saying.  You have to hold that bight up while hauling down.  But as you point out, this is not practical.

>> 2. Lee Bundy does use the extra half hitch but he does not use the bell ringer as I have. He uses an elbow not a loop as used with the bell ringer. http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-UxNQ_VSs_2I/TqoW743xyGI/AAAAAAAAAP0/2WPY5vJ_3js/s1600/bight+loop+elbow+com.jpg

I'll defer to the knot experts when it comes to the lexicon.

>> 3.When I first applied load to the system the loop was pointing up (less than 45deg from the standing part of the tackle system). I will remake a video of this setup at your request, must be the same cord though as it is what I use and I have no need for stronger cord/rope. I have some 5mm (I think its 5mm) polyester but then my anchors (wooden loft bed and a chair) would fail before the knot (not tested, only speculated and I do not want to damage my furniture).

It was knot4u who requested that you test his method.  As I noted in Reply #188, I still got the nip to collapse when tying the bight knot4u style.  I was using boot laces.  You are using 2.8 mm polyester.  I doubt that you will experience a collapse with thicker lines.  Again, extrapolating your results to the size of lines that will actually be used to tie Trucker's Hitches is bad science.

>> When using a truckers hitch (usually) your hands are doing other things and holding up a bight isn't always possible (just super sayian).

Yes, exactly!  A Half Hitch lock will preclude the need to hold the bight while hauling.  That is why, to be sure, I wholeheartedly endorse ABOK #172 + Half Hitch Lock -- Lee Bundy Style.

[Keystoner]

However, I don't agree with his comment "Good luck untying it though."

Did you stop reading after that sentence? 

Knot4u, you try to test Lee's or your TH with the size of line that diff_lock and I used in order affect the collapse that he showed in his video and you try to untie it.

[Andy]

Hi Keystoner,

That is why, to be sure, I wholeheartedly endorse ABOK #172 + Half Hitch Lock -- Lee Bundy Style.

So I understand, do you only endorse the structure, or both the structure and the motion?

For the motion, to product that structure, my impression is that:
- my twist motion is far more efficient than Lee's "twist twice to make a single twist", and that
- you prefer the snow guy's motion anyway.

Awaiting your kind confirmation so we can all get on the same page.

Wishing you all a fun weekend,

Andy

[Edited for clarity: "two twists" => "twist twice"]

[Keystoner]

Hi Keystoner,

That is why, to be sure, I wholeheartedly endorse ABOK #172 + Half Hitch Lock -- Lee Bundy Style.

So I understand, do you only endorse the structure, or both the structure and the motion?

For the motion, my impression is that:
- my twist motion is far more efficient than Lee's "two twists to make a single twist", and that
- you prefer the snow guy's motion anyway.

Awaiting your kind confirmation so we can all get on the same page.

Wishing you all a fun weekend,

Andy

We are on the same page but not the same paragraph.  I am working on some sketches for you.  I'm just a little technologically challenged at the moment.  I need to scan my drawings at work on Monday.  Please be patient.

[Andy]

Please be patient.

Okay, that sounds great.
 

[Keystoner]

Before I respond in detail to Knot4u and present my sketches with respect to whether his or Lee's TH is equivalent to ABOK #173, let me respond to his quote below.

BOOM!  We have found the problem.  Your definition of a Cow Hitch is wrong.  You defined Two Half Hitches, which is a Clove.  When you tie Two Half Hitches, you tie precisely what you wrongly call a Cow Hitch.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_half-hitches

This did not compel me at all!  If a Clove Hitch is two Half Hitches, what is a Cow Hitch, one Half Hitch + WHAT?  A Clove Hitch and a Cow Hitch BOTH consist of two Half Hitches.  What distinguishes the two is the orientation of each Half Hitch with respect to each other and the standing part.  Knot4u linked to Wikipedia's Two Half Hitch entry.  May I direct your attention to the Cow Hitch entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cow_hitch) where I quote, "The cow hitch comprises a pair of half-hitches tied in opposing directions, as compared to the clove hitch in which the half-hitches are tied in the same direction."

[Luca]

Hi diff_lock,

2. Lee Bundy does use the extra half hitch but he does not use the bell ringer as I have. He uses an elbow not a loop as used with the bell ringer. http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-UxNQ_VSs_2I/TqoW743xyGI/AAAAAAAAAP0/2WPY5vJ_3js/s1600/bight+loop+elbow+com.jpg

I watched the video of Lee Bundy and the the second pulley in your video, and in my opinion they are the same: no real elbow in the result of the Lee's structure of the pulley(IMO, or perhaps better, the opinion of my eyes!),the elbow that he seems to make, it seems to me only fictitious/temporary, perhaps the acting in this way is due to his"gestural habit" regarding the realization of the knot, but, in fact, it seems to me, as has been pointed out earlier by Keystoner (and much better than I am doing),Lee seems to realize a simple nipping turn/360 degrees circle loop,as the nipping circle of a Bowline,like your result in your video.

                                                                                                                   Bye!

[Keystoner]

>> Honestly, your making it more complicated than it is.

Yes, overthinking is a strong suit of mine.

>> I recommend you ask your questions in a new thread.  Perhaps many people explaining it to you from different angles will cause you to step back and rethink.

That won't be necessary.  I've drawn out and rearranged my lines in every way possible.  I do see your Clove Hitch.  But I still see your Cow Hitch.  I'll explain in due time.

Here's a hint:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinning_Dancer

[Keystoner]

>> No, starting a new thread is necessary.  I don't have a enough credibility for you, and you are fundamentally off the mark.

No one is compelling you to continue.  I tried to agree to disagree several times.

>>There is no philosophical debate about what Two Half Hitches mean.  It's another name for Clove.

I agree.

>> Also, once again, in ABOK #173, the Clove is not just kinda sorta there if you look at it a certain way.  In fact, a full complete Clove is plainly there in the standing end.

Where I try to defer the conversation to later...you like to keep it going.  All righty then...

In ABOK #173, a Clove is indisputably there.  In your TH, it is not.  In a Clove Hitch...err...Two Half Hitches...there is one element of the line nipping the other element two times.  If anything, since with your TH we're dealing with two different elements nipping each other one time, we're talking about a pseudo-topological-Fisherman's Bend.  Yeah, that's what you tie in your video: A topological Fisherman's Bend, not a topological ABOK #173.

[diff_lock]

Again, extrapolating your results to the size of lines that will actually be used to tie Trucker's Hitches is bad science.

Except the fact that this is the main cordage I use. Do I need to rename the title in the video to specify that the cord is 2.8mm single braid polyester? Done.

[Keystoner]

Again, extrapolating your results to the size of lines that will actually be used to tie Trucker's Hitches is bad science.

Except the fact that this is the main cordage I use. Do I need to rename the title in the video to specify that the cord is 2.8mm single braid polyester? Done.

I'll have to defer to the experts for the best method of a TH for that size line. 

[Keystoner]

>> However, since you're unwilling to start a new thread to discuss your theory, it's like you don't truly believe what you're saying.

I don't have a question.  I don't need to take a poll to validate my position.  I know what I'm saying.  I asked for time to present my "theory" but you'd rather proceed now.  As you wish... (<-- You should understand The Princess Bride reference.)

>> By the way, you're (sic) mentioning of the "pseudo topological Fisherman Bend" with respect to my Trucker Hitch makes you sound like a troll.

If you think I'm a troll, why do you keep engaging?  How do you deal with a troll?  Have you ever heard the expression, "Don't feed the trolls"?  If you do, they'll just keep coming back.  Wait, you keep coming back...does that mean...never mind.  I'm not a troll.

Knot4u, I know you know knots way better than I.  Happy?  No need to be insecure and cry that you don't have credibility with me.  What, I should behold your radiance?  No one can question your eminence?  Yes, I said "Fisherman's Bend."  Do you prefer "Englishman's Knot?"  This is your problem:  you read very selectively (funny, I recall someone questioning another's reading comprehension at one point in this thread); you have your own agenda and you only internalize from others what supports your agenda without trying to understand the whole argument.  Forest for the trees much?  I'll give you an example from yesterday.  You thought I was knocking Lee's TH based on one statement.  If you had been following all along, or tried to understand the juxtaposition of the rest of the paragraph with that statement or tried to understand the context of the response to the question and the video, I doubt you, or any other peer on the forum would have suspected any dislike on my part for the Great Lee Bundy's TH.

Knot4u, did you overlook when I stated, "I do see your Clove Hitch"?  I also understand Luca's cool schematic.  Did you read and visualize "The Spinning Dancer" Wikipedia entry.  Try this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubin_vase.  Knot4u, you're better than me when it comes to knots.  I'm not a troll.  You should be able to understand why I suggested the Fisherman's/Englishman's knot.

>> You can't rearrange a Clove that is hitched to the working end (e.g., the knot in ABOK #173) to get a Cow Hitch.

I wholeheartedly agree with you.  You can with your TH though.

>> However, you can rearrange a Clove that is hitched to the working end to get a Granny Knot.  Likewise, you can rearrange a Cow that is hitched to the working end to get a Square Knot.

I'm with you, bro.
Once again, you've selectively quoted me.  You quote my description of your locking bight but not the nip.  You HAVE to include that to understand my position.

ABOK #173 is obviously, unquestionably, undeniably, indisputably, certainly, a Clove Hitch.  Your TH is not.  (BTW, I am not the first poster in this thread to question your equating your TH and Lee's to ABOK #173).  To say that your TH is topologically equivalent, is subjective at best.  Let me rearrange a prior quote of mine so that it may be more clear to those who chose to overlook it:  In a Clove Hitch and in ABOK #173, there is one element of line nipping another element two times.  With knot4u's and Lee's TH, there are two different elements nipping each other one time, kinda sorta like a Fisherman's/Englishman's Bend.

I feel your pain, knot4u.  I felt it trying to convince Andy.  We can keep this dance going as long as you wish.

[TMCD]

diff_lock
Really good video, can you try my method in that small cord? My method is using ABOK 173 but I do not allow my Clove Hitch to widen like you and most others do in their tying method. I tie the Clove Hitch exactly like you would if you were tying it to a ring or rail, jammed up tight as it should be. I'd be very interested in the results of that scenario.

For the record on my method, which I've tested crudely in Paracord, I've never had it slip or fail. I can report it seems sturdier tying the Clove Hitch method than using the Cow Hitch, (I've tried the Cow Hitch).