Simple lock for the bowline

[Breton]

Nice site, Roo.  Good to see the Alpine Butterfly tied 'in the coil' rather than 'in the twist' as on many websites.

Personally, I don't lock bowlines as I only use them where the tension is more or less constant and the cordage is soft.  Leave a long enough end (12D) and they snug up safely - and may even jam if soaked.  Given that long end, a half hitch or a sticky tape stopper are practical options.

If the rope is hard, eg, halyard-stuff, I just use Figure 8 loop instead.  

[DaveRoot]

The Water Bowline (http://www.geocities.com/roo_two/waterbowline.html) and the Double Bowline (http://www.geocities.com/roo_two/doublebowline.html) are variations of a basic Bowline in which an extra half hitch is added.  The difference depends on which half hitch lies on top of the other.

Based on the above links, roo feels that the Double Bowline isn't quite as secure as the Water Bowline.  Is this the general consensus?  Is the end of the rope fairly well "locked" with either of these forms of the Bowline?

Also, which of these two is considered to be stronger (in terms of breaking strength)?

[roo]

The Water Bowline (http://notableknotindex.webs.com/waterbowline.html) and the Double Bowline (http://notableknotindex.webs.com/doublebowline.html) are variations of a basic Bowline in which an extra half hitch is added.  The difference depends on which half hitch lies on top of the other.

Based on the above links, roo feels that the Double Bowline isn't quite as secure as the Water Bowline.  Is this the general consensus?  Is the end of the rope fairly well "locked" with either of these forms of the Bowline?

Also, which of these two is considered to be stronger (in terms of breaking strength)?

Before going too far, you might want to define what you mean by "locked".  Given a slick enough and springy enough rope, any knot can eventually be shaken free.

I do not know which form is stronger.  If one is stronger than the other, it's likely to be a wider gap in especially knot-sensitive materials (i.e. spectra) than in nylon rope, for example, which seems to keep more of its strength when knotted.

[Dan Lehman]

The Water Bowline and the Dble Bwl are variations of a basic Bwl in which an extra half hitch is added.  The difference depends on which half hitch lies on top of the other.

It's an extra TURN in the Dble.Bwl, not a HH.  The additional security
that provides is partly in that whatever slight loosening might
come will be allocated over the two vs. a single turn; and the
round turn (another name for it--"RT Bwl") will better grip the collar legs
under tension.

Based on the above links, roo feels that the Double Bowline isn't quite as secure as the Water Bowline.  Is this the general consensus?  Is the end of the rope fairly well "locked" with either of these forms of the Bowline?

I concur in Roo's assessment, ASSUMING that one takes the "Water
Bwl" to be essentially a Bwl using a Clove vs. HHitch in the SPart;
it is otherwise sometimes shown with this extra HH spaced at some
remove from the main knot (and I might suggest that the source even had
really tied off some object--"hitchec" we might say--with a simple
knot which became capsized into this HH, and the point being
to better snug the loop eye to the object.  (This is something
along the lines of what Cyrus Day muses in his attempt to figure out
the point of the knot.  Budworth seems to be one who has made it
a point to put the extra HH up snug with the knot.  As such, with
some working when setting the knot, one can gain security.

My guess it that the Dbl (aka "Round Turn") Bwl is stronger.

As for locking, I've already suggested better ways to lock a Bwl; see above.
Again, esp. with the Dbl.Bwl form, look at the 4th, "rear view  side"
image of the single Bwl shown on Dan Britton's site:
www.iland.net/~jbritton/bowline.htm

Notice where the SPart crosses UNDER itself informing that collar-nipping
part of the knot, before it then flows into the eye.  That's where one
would like to bind the knot with the end!  So, simply bring the end (as
oriented in the "rear view" image) back down OVER this crossing,
and then re-tuck (don't untuck to begin--just continue from the
regular form!) the end beside itself; tighten this end-turn,
tighten the SPart's turn; repeat ... .

For a truly added HH, with the end, again from the position above
("rear view") take the end Over to the right and around in
making a HH around BOTH legs of the eye; tuck (to make it a HH)
under itself (end) AND through the loop of the SPart, which puts
one more piece of rope to hold the end.

--dl*
====

[SS369]

Looking over the site and trying out links found I see that the www.iland.net/~jbritton/bowline.htm link is dead.
Updated link > www.pssurvival.com/PS/Knots/Knot_Knowledge_Photo_Illustrations_2004.pdf

That said, I want to offer an easy method of securing the WE of a "standard" bowline (instead of starting a new thread.
It appears to help with some anti-ring loading and most certainly inhibits shaking loose.

Adds a tad of bulk, but then so do other methods and the WE is pointed away from the loop, if that is a major concern.
I've not found reference to this simple method, as of yet.

Thoughts?

SS

[Dan_Lehman]

The main advantage to this that I can see is that Agent_Smith
won't be able to extend it by throwing in a "Yosemite" finish.   

Other than that, the bowline (#1010)  tail's initial hard turn
of 1 diameter back into the turNip is going to be strongly
resisted by many of the common (i.e., kernmantle) ropes
for which some securing is needed.

--dl*
====

[knot4u]

*cough*

Double Dragon

*cough*

[SS369]

Hi Dan,

I tied this in 10.5 static rope and it works very well. I should think and I will try it with some similar size dynamic rope.
It works.

The specimen the photo is of is  BlueWater Titan 5.5 (Dyneema) and it is a real bear on knots. Will fail quite a few of them unless extra measures are taken. All the rope manufacturers recommend, when making a sling with it, to use a triple fishermans knot.

I usually try newbie knots, to me that is, using that and a few other sizes and types of cord and rope.

SS

[SS369]

Hi knto4u,

I believe you are off topic.

SS

[Dan_Lehman]

Hi Dan,
I tied this in 10.5 static rope and it works very well.
I should think and I will try it with some similar size dynamic rope.
It works.

Well, I stand rejected/dejected/corrected --pick one.
At least some of the more recalcitrant ropes won't like this,
but, then, they don't like knots of any ilk, so ... .
I just put your knot into Goldmantle (now that's  dated!),
and it indeed looks not all so bad; put it to some strain,
too, and it looked good re curvature.

Maybe it does some added pressure on the collar bight that
makes that less loosen-able?

VERSION-II :
I also deliberately *mis*-tied it so that the tail turn-&-tuck
encompassed the tail-side eye leg, and this looks decent as well,
though perhaps less good re curvature (for whatever that's worth).

The specimen the photo is of is  BlueWater Titan 5.5 (Dyneema) and it is a real bear on knots.
Will fail quite a few of them unless extra measures are taken. All the rope manufacturers recommend,
when making a sling with it, to use a triple fishermans knot.

Perhaps, but not at the forces we're putting on knots
to check them.  But isn't that stuff also rather stiff (at least
if not much used)?  --though more "stiff" as in "don't want
to, but can bend" than "just won't bend easily".

--dl*
====

[SS369]

Hello Dan,

The Titan cord is as you say "just won't bend easily" and so it kind of, mimics a large static rope. I find that if I unscientifically test these kinds of knot(s) modifications using it, it will sort of represent some aspects of magnifying what kind of movement can happen.
Yes, some ropes do not like knots at all. I have an old 5/8 inch-ish bull rope that can stand on its own for a few feet, that balks at any knot that needs to be tight to work.
I just tried a bowline in it and could not tighten it up enough to make it barely recognizable and doing the mod to it, well, calisthenics.

I agree that the forces we put to our puny tests only graze the surface of stressing the tangles, but that, testing, is another thread (which I would really love to conceptualize & explore )  ;-)

SS

[xarax]

...an easy method of securing the WE of a "standard" bowline

 Just for the record, another, almost identical variation of this bowline, is shown in the attached pictures. It produces a bulkier nub, that is true, but I think that the more convoluted form might be marginally beneficial to the overall security of the loop.
 

[SS369]

Good day/evening xarax.

I just tied your offering and it performs just as well using the Titan cord (with my vigorous hand testing.) I shy away from adding more bulk unless it does indeed add more needed security.
I found it easy to tie and in the given rope and load, it was very easy to untie.
I'll drag out the big stuff later and give it a twirl.
Thanks

SS

[Bob Thrun]

I saw people asking for a picture of the Janus Bowline.  Nobody produced one.  I scanned Heinz Prohaska's article, and posted it to CaveChat partly because because that forum allows larger picture files.  I thought I posted a link in another thread here.  Then I saw the dates in this thread.  Anyhow, here is the link again.
http://forums.caves.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=7818&p=65350&hilit=prohaska#p65350

[xarax]

I scanned Heinz Prohaska's article, and posted it to CaveChat

   Thanks for the pictures. You would probably know by now that there is not only one Janus bowline, but plenty of them !   ( many different variations of the same idea).Three of those are shown in the attached pictures. (1),(2).

1) http://www.paci.com.au/downloads_public/knots/02_Bowlines.pdf
2) http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1202.msg19317#msg19317