Instructions wanted

[kenneth]

I found this nicely done knot board after a google search -

http://www.agrussell.com/accessories/gifts/first_mates_knot_board.html

It has a number of knots on it I don't remember seeing anywhere in my knot books. Does anyone know where I could find directions on how to tie the knot in the lower right hand corner? Thanks!

[kenneth]

It took some doing but I found out the knot is called the Pipa knot. A template for this knot is found here - http://daoofsilk.com/catalog/
Rather then delete my post, I thought I would pass the information along.  

[Fairlead]

This is also how a  version of the Chineese button frog is made.
You do not need a template.
Assume the lower left end in the picture is the standing part....pin this to a board a couple of inches from the end then form the first large loop and come back up and round behind the standing part (just above the pin) then cross over the front and form the next large loop inside the first one....back up round the standing part above the last small loop .....et seq.
It will need a couple of stitches to keep it in place when made.

Gordon

[Brian_Grimley]

Kenneth,

This knot has an interesting form. I have seen it used as a decorative knot: a button frog and a small lanyard knot. I think it originates in Asia (China (?)). If I remember correctly, it was also used as a button frog on women's coats in Europe in the early 1900's.  

Knot names are always fun! In Carol Wang's site, which you posted, she notes the the name is the "Pipa Knot" and also the "Tear Drop Knot". I have also seen it called the "Japanese Ginger Knot".

This knot form is also interesting since it is used, by Boy Scouts in Japan, to coil rope. Here is a .gif from a Japanese Boy Scout site: http://w3.poporo.ne.jp/~noguchi/boyscout/Rope/ebi.gif . Here is a picture of a coiled rope: http://www.surfboard.co.jp/fukui28/hint/rope/b/8.html .
The rope can be hung from the coil's top loop from a belt. I have often read, that to help prevent twists in braided rope, the rope is best coiled in a shape of a figure of eight. This knot does that and has a secure form.

Continuing with the fun of knot names, the knot used as a method to coil rope is called, in Japan, the "Ebi Musubi" which translates into English as the "Shrimp (or Lobster) Knot".

Since the knot board you posted implies the Navy used this knot, I would be interested in how it was used in the Navy (or anywhere else for that matter  ).

Cheers - Brian.

[Fairlead]

Brian,
Thank you for offering up the Japaneese site.
When you think about it, this is a VERY common method of coiling which I use a lot in small stuff wound in the palm of the hand around the thumb and small finger - but never seen it used for rope.  I first learned to do it with Morse code and 5 unit Murray code tape that we used in Royal Naval Communications Centres.  By this method you can dump the coil in a basket and let the tape reader pull the tape from the centre of the hank and it will not tangle or snag.  I now use it on any long line that I am working with (i.e. serving or macrame) with a rubber band around the centre to hold it in place.
Take no notice of the title of that knot board Brian, I have nerver seen, nor can I think of a use for any of those knots at sea!
Gordon

[Brian_Grimley]

Fairlead,

Thank you for the additional applications of the figure-of-eight type coils. It never ceases to amaze me how a knot is connected to the material inwhich it is tied. The relationship of the "Pipa Knot" to coiling small stuff didn't occur to me until you mentioned it!

There is a site in China showing the "Pipa Knot" as a button frog. It is here: http://www.bfjdfz.net/en/knots/How%20to%20knot/Knoting.htm and the knot is called the "Pipa Kou Jie".

Pipa is also the name of a Chinese, stinged,  musical instrument shown here: http://research.umbc.edu/eol/8/dujunco/pipa.jpg .

Perhaps the "Pipa Knot" is so named because its shape reflects that of the musical instrument. Since "Jie" in "Pipa Kou Jie" is in all the knots shown above, I suspect it may mean knot or tying or connection. However, the "Kou" leaves me blank.  Does anyone know the meaning of "Kou" or perhaps, the meaning of "Kou Jie"?

I think it would be the ultimate irony if the "Pipa Knot" was used to make the tassel shown in the photo of the Pipa. If only there was a little more resolution on that .jpg ....

Best wishes - Brian.  

[nautile]

May be hat can be of help
About KOU
http://www.ancestry.com/learn/facts/Fact.aspx?fid=10&yr=0&ln=Kou

http://www.ancestry.com/learn/facts/Fact.aspx?fid=10&yr=0&ln=Kou    see KOW-TOW

http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/kowtow


"kou," meaning mouth or opening. This word, "kou," is also used in the modern word for "population."
http://www.corewave.com/wwwboard/messages/138.html


Chinese proverb, 'hu kou ba ya,' meaning pulling teeth from a tiger's mouth,"
http://www.pitt.edu/~press/news/pullingdragonpr.html


http://www.sinica.edu.tw/tit/arts/0596_Sculpture.html


KOU = leg
http://math.ucsd.edu/programs/undergraduate/history_of_math_resource/history_papers/math_history_01.pdf


kou" meaning mouth or representing a person
http://www.christianlegalfellowship.org/devotionals/devotionals/nohighercalling_week07.htm



(river) mouth
http://yugong.fudan.edu.cn/chgis/other/skinner/metadata/ChinesePlaceNames.htm

The chi enters a house through its doors and windows, but mainly through the main door, known as the 'kou', meaning mouth.
http://www.wofs.com/fsw.php?c=feng_shui_uk

http://www.angelfire.com/art/rcxshizuka/ranma/ukyopuns.txt
"on" or "Chinese" reading of "kou", meaning like, be fond of, love,
favourable, good, fine, or friendship;

(kou, meaning mouth)'
http://www.china.org.cn/english/NM-e/136623.htm


http://www.theshihtzuclub.co.uk/articles/shihtzuintibet.htm


http://app1.chinadaily.com.cn/star/2001/1129/cu18-2.html

[Brian_Grimley]

Nautile,

Your post inspired me! I found a Chinese / English dictionary here: http://www.tigernt.com/ .

I entered the "Kou" as PinYin and one of the meanings is button. I entered "Jie" and one of the meanings is "knot".

"Pipa Kou Jie" might then be translated into English as the "Pipa Button Knot".  One day, I will try to confirm that this is true.

I was interested to see that Chinese ideograms help distinquish between the various meanings of the PinYin "Kou" and "Jie". For example, as your post shows, the PinYin "Kou", with the ideogram that looks like a square, is translated as mouth. "Kou", as a button, has a different ideogram. (Oh my! ... a knot is just the tip of the iceburg! )

Cheers - Brian.

[kenneth]

Thank you one and all for the terrific information. I could not quite figure out how to tie the Pipa knot from the Japanese site diagram so I went ahead and ordered all four Asian knot templets available since I didn't know how to tie any of those knots.  Diagrams make sense after I know how to tie a knot, usually not before.

[Brian_Grimley]

Kenneth,

Let us know how you like those templates! Although I can and have tied those knots, the pictures of the templates have always appealed to me. I could rationalize this using phrases like "negative space".  However, in reality, I just think they look kind of neat!  

Cheers - Brian.

[kenneth]

The templates came. I tried two of the knots with no luck. I managed to get to the last step of the Tear Drop Knot where they tell me to remove the knot from the form. How do you remove something attached to a form by a closed loop created in the first two steps?   I  followed the instructions the best I could several times and ended up with the same knot which can not be removed from the template.
Had a worse time with the flower knot. Got to step 5 then step six ends up being several steps at once which the instructions don't picture very well once. Step seven is only in French, they forgot to print the instructions in English. Step eight is another multi-step puzzle.
I am one of those people if there is ANY way to mis-interpret, or get confused by a set of directions, I will. I can't recommend these templates to anyone who has the same trouble following printed directions which are not completely fool proof on how to manipulate objects.

[Brian_Grimley]

Just a final note on the names of the "Pipa Knot". The name on the knot board posted by kenneth, http://www.agrussell.com/accessories/gifts/first_mates_knot_board.html  , is the "Pear Knot". It is the name in Graumont and Hensel, "Encyclopedia on Knots and Fancy Rope Work", pg. 306, pl. 157, fig. 298 of the "Pipa Knot".

Knot names remind me of Lewis Carrol's satire, "Through the Looking-Glass". In Chapter 8, Alice is talking to the Knight who is about to sing her a song.

Edited it goes something like the following.

Knight: "The name of the song is called 'Haddocks' Eyes'."
Alice: "Oh, that's the name of the song, is it?".
Knight:  "No, you don't understand ... That's what the name is called. The name really is 'The Aged Aged Man'."
Alice: "Then I ought to have said 'That's what the song is called'?".
Knight:  "No, you oughtn't: that's quite another thing! The song is called 'Ways and Means': but that's only what it's called, you know!"
Alice: "Well, what is the song, then?"
Knight:  "The song really is 'A-sitting On a Gate'."

Cheers - Brian.

Ps. Kenneth, try again, we have all had this experience or a variation of this experience when learning new knots. Welcome to the club!  

[Carol Wang]

I just wanted to confirm what has already been said:
- pipa knot is named for the pipa instrument (similiar to a lute in shape)
- pipa kou jie is pipa button knot (the most popular usage of this knot)

Someone mentioned it's use as a lanyard.  I've also seen them used for earrings.  If you try to tie it you'll notice it's not all that stable.  Care needs to be used in handling the knot before it's sewn down to the clothing if used for a button, or if it is to be used pendant fashion, you'll need to reinforce the structure with thread or glue.

[Carol Wang]

WRT using the template:
step 1 is putting the cord into the notched hole
step 2 is putting the cord through the eye at the top of the template.
step 3 is winding the cord around the template according to the arrows
step 4 is putting the cord through the hole in the middle, front to back.

at this point the entire arrangement is more or less locked onto the template.  

step 5: you need to remove the cord from the notched hole.
step 6: gently loosen the cord from the template and lift off, note that cord is still threaded through the eye at the top of the template.  this part will be the eye of your knot, you need to make sure that it doesn't get sucked back through the rest of the knot.  it's placement in the neck of the knot is one of the keys to the whole thing holding together.

I hope that helps.  If not email me directly.  I will try to to a better job of keeping up with the forum, but obviously I fall off the wagon regularly.  

I will have a go at debugging flower knot instructions after I've fed the kids breakfast.  

[Willeke]

Thanks Carol,
for your help with the instructions.
We needed the real expert here, not a lot of us just guessing.
And it is good to read that the guess about the name was right.

Willeke