Author Topic: A bend similar to the Ashley  (Read 4195 times)

Jacon

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A bend similar to the Ashley
« on: November 17, 2010, 05:33:03 AM »
Hey everybody,

First post.  Figured this was the right place to pose my question.

I recently read with interest the section in the 1992 Rigger's Apprentice in which Brion Toss discusses bend strength and the famous Ashley pull-test.  Unfortunately I don't own the book, which is the source of my problem.  I taught myself a variation to the Ashley Bend that Toss describes, and though I remember how to tie it, I cannot remember it's name.  Does anybody know what I'm talking about?  Toss claimed it was as strong and resistant to slippage as the Ashley.

A bit of background: I'm an avid climber and sailor, hence my fascination with knots, and recently I've been searching for the right bend to replace the "European Death Knot" for bending two ropes together for rappel.  The EDK, of course, is just an overhand bend (ABOK 1410).  Even when you tie a "double EDK," it really doesn't feel that secure.  The advantage of the EDK, as compared to say a double fisherman's or a Flemish bend, is that it rolls over edges when you're pulling the rope, and is thus FAR less likely to get stuck. 

So I'm searching for a more secure bend that will still roll over edges, and I think the one Toss wrote of might be it... if only I could remember it's name to do some more research. 

thanks so much
Jacon

Jacon

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Re: A bend similar to the Ashley
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2010, 06:09:44 AM »
I think this is it, but I'm not sure:



Sorry for the extremely poor quality. 

Dan_Lehman

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Re: A bend similar to the Ashley
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2010, 08:49:15 AM »
... in the 1992 Rigger's Apprentice in which Brion Toss discusses bend strength and the famous Ashley pull-test.  Unfortunately I don't own the book, which is the source of my problem.  I taught myself a variation to the Ashley Bend that Toss describes, and though I remember how to tie it, I cannot remember it's name.  Does anybody know what I'm talking about?  Toss claimed it was as strong and resistant to slippage as the Ashley.

Looking in that text, I don't see quite the match of those assertions.
He follows Ashley's Bend #1452 with what he calls there "The Benson Bend"
(which is something I've alluded to elsewhere : it is --and ought to have been
so recognized by both Brion & Mr. Benson-- Ashley's #1421, the Double Harness
Bend)
; he then presents "the Strait Bend" (aka "Butterfly bend"), which he claims
is "the strongest of this series" --but one testing I know of has a different result.

Quote
A bit of background:  I'm an avid climber and sailor, hence my fascination with knots, and recently I've been searching for the right bend to replace the "European Death Knot" for bending two ropes together for rappel.  The EDK, of course, is just an overhand bend (ABOK 1410).  Even when you tie a "double EDK," it really doesn't feel that secure.

Except that there are reasons to go beyond your "feel" --you can yourself
give it sufficient testing, IMO, with body weight, a simple 2:1 pulley with
a 'biner (actual advantage maybe 1.5:1), and bounce away, convince yourself!
Beyond this, there are some other test results about.  There is another, recent
post about such knots and you can find my reference to some rockclimbing
forum's ("RC.com") discussion of such offset knots, entitled "Beyond the EDK...".
A presentation is made to show exactly how to tie and back-up the
Offset Water Knot ("EDK"), as well as a couple alternative offset end-2-end knots.

Quote
The advantage of the EDK, as compared to say a double fisherman's or a Flemish bend, is that it rolls over edges when you're pulling the rope, and is thus FAR less likely to get stuck.
So I'm searching for a more secure bend that will still roll over edges, and I think the one Toss wrote of might be it... if only I could remember it's name to do some more research.  
thanks so much
Jacon

None of the knots presented by Toss is offset, and so none will perform
as you desire --just having the tails in the same perpendicular-to-loading
direction doesn't make a knot offset and smooth flowing!

Btw, the blurry bend that you present is a version of Single Harness
Bend
(one tail going back over its SPart then around up between
SParts, the other going directly up between).  The tails could go in
opposite directions, as well.  Benson's match was of the same-direction
version of the Dbl.Harness, so you are pretty close from memory!
(But, hey, try pulling this knot over the edge of a desk, e.g., and see
how different it is from the OWK in flowing around that.)  Oh,
you also have a likely unusual dressing of this knot vis-a-vis the
placement of the tails to each other --normally they'd be on the other
side, I think (i.e., e.g., of lower pic the tail on the left would be
on the right, turning around only the opposite SPart, not also
surrounding the other tail's turn).

--dl*
====
« Last Edit: November 19, 2010, 06:16:10 PM by Dan_Lehman »

Jacon

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Re: A bend similar to the Ashley
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2010, 06:54:13 PM »
Ahh, thank you!  The Benson Bend - that is indeed what I am talking about.  I'm not surprised that it was mislabeled, since it has been so hard to find online.  Nor am I surprised that my memory of what Toss said is a bit skewed - it wasn't that recently.  Thank you for your help, and I will investigate the offset bends you mention.


Dan_Lehman

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Re: A bend similar to the Ashley
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2010, 06:33:57 PM »
I should give the exact URLink for the recent (as of this writing!) forum
thread regarding the "EDK" :  http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2070.0
--and it contains URLinks to images elsewhere.

And I should remark that the Double Harness Bend (and perhaps a "Triple"
or greater version) might be a good knot for joining tubular webbing,
having similar strength properties (i.e., good) to the Grapevine but
with better chance of untying the knot (hence the thought for "Triple"
and greater --the more wraps of tails putting more *spacer* material
into the knot and marginally increasing the ease of prying open/wide
the center of the knot to unwrap the tails; and more wraps = more secure.
(Yes, this would be essentially Ashley's #1417, with an extra wrap even
--like making Timber Hitches of each end to the other.)

--dl*
====

 

anything