New knot / What knot is similar?

[knotquestion]

Was messing with some 550, and hoping someone with more knowledge than I have might be able to recognize the name of, or similar knots to this one. Thanks!

[[Inkanyezi] gone]

We had a thread about it recently: http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2148.0

[knotquestion]

I'm missing something...

Is the link to inform me of forum procedures or to bring up a similar knot already discussed? Or is it to defer me to the discussion of bowline variations? Your reply leaves me puzzled as to what you're saying. Care to elaborate?

[[Inkanyezi] gone]

The knot you posted is the same as the one discussed in the other thread. Not similar, identical.

[knotquestion]

Dude I'm sorry...but that's just not true. In reading that thread, that discussion is of a bowline where the loop is twisted an extra 180 degrees before being locked by the running end bight. Loop locked by a bight; a bowline. The one I've posted has very different characteristics firstly that it's a loop locked by a loop, but also where that standing loop is incorporated further as a bight, and also where the running end doesn't finish through the same loop as it entered. It's not a twisted bowline.

All I'm posting this for is to get some knowledgeable information from people familiar with ABOK, who know a lot of variations of knots, etc, who might recognize it or a similar one as an ABOK knot just by looking at it. That would be something that would take me a lot of plodding research to try and find as well as purchasing and waiting for specialty books that I don't have. It's a forum, it's for exchanging information. So, respectfully, I'd appreciate it if replies to this question weren't based on cursory dismissals when the question was obviously not looked into.

Thank you.

Anyone else recognize it?

[knotquestion]

On second thought, maybe the standing loop doesn't make a bight. I don't know. Again, it's why I'm posting on the forum.

[[Inkanyezi] gone]

Sorry, one slight difference, but nevertheless, I would place it in the same family. The difference is where the end goes. An it is indeed a curious feature, that by withdrawing the end in the knot I linked to, so that it goes on the other side of the standing part where it emerges, the knot becomes more secure. There is much likeness, but afaik, the knot is not in the ABoK.

If a swift way of tying it is invented, it might be a good alternative to the bowline.

[knotquestion]

Cool, thanks for the info.

[dfred]

Sorry, one slight difference, but nevertheless, I would place it in the same family. The difference is where the end goes. An it is indeed a curious feature, that by withdrawing the end in the knot I linked to, so that it goes on the other side of the standing part where it emerges, the knot becomes more secure. There is much likeness, but afaik, the knot is not in the ABoK.

If a swift way of tying it is invented, it might be a good alternative to the bowline.

I have seen this family (or structurally-similar class) of knots being called Samisen, after the Japanese stringed instrument of that name.  The same underlying structure is (apparently) traditionally used to secure the strings to fixed loops of cord at the "tailpiece" of the instrument.  These knots are discussed at some length in a series of very interesting articles by Pieter van de Griend in IGKT-PAB's Knot News covering Hjalmar Ohrvall's contributions to knotting knowledge.  In particular the last article, from Knot News #69 (Sep 2008), has a couple pages devoted to Samisen-like knots.

As far as related knots in ABOK, see #1463, p. 265 for a bend based on it.   This is promoted as heaving-line bend, but apparently there's no particular reason to believe that it was originally used for that, given Ashley apparently learned of it from Ohrvall, who in turn had encountered it (or a similarly structured knot) on an actual Samisen in a museum in Sweden.

More to the point, another P. van de Griend article called "The Constrictor Knot Revisited" (Knot News #62 (July 2007)) shows a loop knot based on the structure, quite similar to the two knots being discussed here.  It is pictured below.   I find that a simple way to reliably tie these Samisen loop knots is to start with a loop flopped over the standing part in the same manner one would use to make a Marlinespike Hitch.   Even though it may not stay in this form after drawing-up, it is a recognizable shape that makes the turns and tucks easier to remember.  This precursor is shown along with the above-mentioned knot:




[EDIT: clarifying which article discusses what, and 'O' instead of umlaut for Ohrvall as forum didn't accept it as entered...]