Looking for a sheet bend alternative

[wackymorningdj]

I'm new to the forum, and an occasional knot nut.

I'm working on a knotless net bag as a demonstration project that I'm going to teach in a few weeks, and I need a good bend for tying two pieces of twine together.  In previous bags I've used sheet bends, but I've noticed that they tend to come untied after a lot of use.

Ideally the bend should be (in decreasing order of importance):

• Easy to tie for beginners.
• Secure without loading.
• Able to cut the free ends short.
• Flat (not bulky, and with the two lines coming out of the knot in opposite directions).

Also, the knot doesn't need to be untied, so it's OK if it jams.

I figure if there's anywhere to ask, this is the place.

Mike

[roo]

I'm working on a knotless net bag as a demonstration project that I'm going to teach in a few weeks, and I need a good bend for tying two pieces of twine together.  In previous bags I've used sheet bends, but I've noticed that they tend to come untied after a lot of use.

Ideally the bend should be (in decreasing order of importance):

• Easy to tie for beginners.
• Secure without loading.
• Able to cut the free ends short.
• Flat.

If it's just twine, I was going to suggest a European Death Knot (based on a simple overhand knot):



...but I'm not sure what you mean by "flat".  What is the flatness supposed to accomplish?

Another option:  http://notableknotindex.webs.com/Zeppelin.html

[wackymorningdj]

By "flat", I mean something that isn't bulky, and that has the two lines coming out from the knot in opposite directions.  The netting mesh is fairly small, so the knot shouldn't stick out.  Basically I'm trying to hide the knots.

[knot4u]

I'm new to the forum, and an occasional knot nut.

I'm working on a knotless net bag as a demonstration project that I'm going to teach in a few weeks, and I need a good bend for tying two pieces of twine together.  In previous bags I've used sheet bends, but I've noticed that they tend to come untied after a lot of use.

Ideally the bend should be (in decreasing order of importance):

• Easy to tie for beginners.
• Secure without loading.
• Able to cut the free ends short.
• Flat.

I figure if there's anywhere to ask, this is the place.

Mike

Does the knot need to be untied, or is it OK if it jams?

[wackymorningdj]

Jamming is fine.  The knot shouldn't ever need to be untied.
(I'll add all this to the original post too)

[roo]

By "flat", I mean something that isn't bulky, and that has the two lines coming out from the knot in opposite directions.  The netting mesh is fairly small, so the knot shouldn't stick out.  Basically I'm trying to hide the knots.

In that case, the Zeppelin Bend listed above might be a better choice for your needs.  

A Water Knot might also be a option, though maybe a little bulkier:


Its jamming probably won't be a problem for disposable twine, but sometimes it's nice to be able to adjust a knot if it isn't in the right spot on the first try.

[knot4u]

OK, jamming is not an issue.  Further, I would think you would actually want the knot to jam if you plan on cutting the ends.  I was initially going to say the Zeppelin Bend.  However, because jamming is OK, the door is open to a larger world of knots.  Let me think...

Ideally the bend should be (in decreasing order of importance):

...

• Able to cut the free ends short.

...

[SS369]

Hello wackymorningdj and welcome.

For a simple knot to use as the bend, what comes to mind given the particulars you've listed is a Waterman's knot. It has other names such as Fisherman's, True Lover's and Angler's knot. Probably more, but that is another topic.
I'll attach a picture from the Net.

Another that could be easy is the Flemish bend. Basically two figure 8's that are woven into each other.

Hopefully these will do. If not ask away.
Seems like a good opportunity to teach some knotting to the beginners. Welcome them to here if you would like to!

SS

[knot4u]

I recommend the Flemish Bend (Figure 8 Bend), the Fisherman Knot or the Water Knot (Overhand Bend).  All three are relatively easy to tie, and they all jam, which I think is preferable here.  If you're going to cut the ends, you want the knot to stay put.  With cut ends, if the knot became untied, you'd have to tie the knot at a different location...not good.


Flemish Bend (Figure 8 Bend)


Fisherman Knot


Water Knot (Overhand Bend)

[TMCD]

You said you were using sheet bends for a while, but wanted an upgrade. I would suggest a Simple Simon Under, it's in Geoffrey Budworth's Encyclopedia of Knots & ROPEWORK...Budworth calls this bend a very useful and underrated bend, stating it deserves more recognition and should be used on a wider scale than it is at present. It's a step up from the Sheetbend. It's VERY easy to tie too.

Another bend I would strongly consider is the Racking Bend, it's based on figure 8 interweaving. But it works well with two ropes of different sizes...the smaller rope seizes the bight of a much thicker rope and allows the bight to remain seized. Budworth's book says it can be used to join massive cable laid cordage aboard ocean going ships or used in fine twines.

[Dan_Lehman]

Hello, Wacky!

The knot that you should use is the Surgeon's knot (so-called).
(I.e., the Square Knot cousin, not the angler's oddly named multiple overhand.)

This is very easily tied in your finicky small stuff, and by beginners,
and will jam secure upon setting, to be trimmed at each end.

QED.

 

[SaltyCracker]

This is ABoK 1031 tied as a bend. It is the lowest profile bend that I know... the crossings don't seem to double up anywhere in the structure of the knot. It's fairly easy to tie. (Anything is easy if you know how to do it.) It holds in about any type of line. Ends come out parallel to the standing part, etc.

[SaltyCracker]

Drawn-up, finished knot from previous post. Resembles a vice-versa (corrected spelling 2011-Jan-28) but more versatile. Can also be a loop knot.

[SS369]

Yes that will work easily for the purpose. That is the same knot as in the picture I posted in reply #7 and the center picture that knot4u posted as well.

And I was incorrect as I mis-saw the knot you posted SaltyCracker, sorry. ;-)

Thanks you for adding it as well SaltyCracker.

Now if wackymorningdj is watching he can take this same knot and do the double version of it and it should assuage Roo's concerns.

SS

[Dan_Lehman]

Yes that will work easily for the purpose.

That is the same knot as in the picture I posted in reply #7
and the center picture that knot4u posted as well.

Wrong on all accounts.

I don't see how Salty can find this of such small profile, as the Reef
is of course smaller, and the Water Knot (Ring Bend) & Fisherman's
knot as small and better shaped.  (It's interesting that Ashley didn't
see in #1031/1048 the interlocking-overhands bend Harry Asher
christened "Shakehands", which is loaded in reverse to what's
presented here, and thus easily untied --not wanted, though, for
the OP's application.)  Ashley's #1406 is quite small, trimmed,
but it's tricky to set and it's not reassuring about jamming secure.

I will revise my recommendation above (for the Surgeon's) to be
for the Double Harness Bend or ABOK #1421.  This not only
has a small profile but it presents the ends together (there is a
version that has them opposite) which in the OP's circumstance
is an ideal presentation for cutting off --both at once, and both
right at the nub (much easier to trim than were they exiting parallel
to the SParts)!

The Layhands site has a decent representation of it, but for easy
tying, you'll want to skip to step#3 and look at the geometry
there and work up your method to tie one end first, then the
other, then bring the halves together (to abut each other),
which can take some bit of dexterity or technique/practice.
Pull to set & jam, and then snip the tails close to the body
.:.  perfect!

Cf www.layhands.com/Knots/Knots_Bends.htm
where #8 is the Dbl.Harness Bend, and #18 Shakehands.
(Beware of the appalling bozos on-line pretending to show
a "double harness bend" in some videos --egadz. (eHow/Marinews))