Fixed loop for hiking and skiing

[roo]

I know what everybody's thinking, now : How does Roo do shoes?!
Which foot to do first --there are about two of them, (and that's 4 laces!)

This mockery is coming from someone who is surprised that people get his written instructions wrong 99% of the time.

[Dan_Lehman]

I can see how the Butterfly has been difficult to untie from where you were. To untie the Butterfly easily, first, you need to get the Butterfly to look like Pic#7 of Method #1 in that link.

It's a shame that the both-ends-pulled-opposite-eye formation was
put forward under the name "butterfly" --it's really a rather different
beast, much as the lanyard-knot form of #1452 in #781/2 are.  That
they are topologically equivalent is small consolation to behavioral difference.

I like the butterfly as an end loop, but to make it less jammable, I  tie it as an end loop,
not as a butterfly loop that happens to be at the end of the cord.
To to this you ...

[SEE : ] http://davidmdelaney.com/alpine-butterfly-loop/Alpine-butterfly-bend-loop.html. Also see the attached picture.

Will it be disquieting to point out that "there are about six ways"
in which the "butterfly" can emerge from its cocoon (excluding Layhands's) ?!

The tails can be "parallel", uncrossed; or they can be crossed in either of
two ways; and for each of these orientations there is the choice of
which end to load, to make S.Part !

Here are two crossings.  We can refer to one overhand component
as taking the "pretzel" form, the other the half- or timber-hitch form.
That shown by David's orange rope takes the timber-hitch form, in the
*split* crossing orientation (my quick term, meaning that this S.Part
doesn't bite & draw its own tail but the opposite side's tail (such as we
can view them qua "tails" for the moment)).

See attached photos, fresh from the SDHCard.

--dl*
====

[knot4u]

I know what everybody's thinking, now : How does Roo do shoes?!
Which foot to do first --there are about two of them, (and that's 4 laces!)

This mockery is coming from someone who is surprised that people get his written instructions wrong 99% of the time.

He got you there, Dan. 

[alpineer]

 

I know what everybody's thinking, now : How does Roo do shoes?!
Which foot to do first --there are about two of them, (and that's 4 laces!)

AND I heard he tries to tie his shoes with his beloved Zeppelin Bend but ends up with False Alpine Butterfly Bends every time!
 

[SS369]

Gentleman, let's stay on topic please. Good natured as it maybe we're straying too far afield.

Anyone have a better solution for Hrungnir original request?

SS

[Hrungnir]

I've finally put the discussed knots to the test!

I did put on my wool mittons and picked a 2mm twine and a 1cm line. The loops I tried to tie was the bowline, zeppelin loop, butterfly bend loop and double dragon.

I was able to tie all of the knots with the 1cm line. The double dragon was a bit more difficult to untie than the other knots.

2mm twine:
- Bowline: Had two attempts, because the half hitch dissolved on the first attempt. I managed to tie the bowline on second attempt.
- Zeppelin: Passing the working end through two loops in the final step was too difficult.
- Butterfly: Passing the working end on the right place inside that overhand knot in the final step was too difficult and confusing
- Double Dragon: I managed to tie this knot in first attempt. The length of the twine was the only concern. No starting knot made tying easier and the fact that I could tie the knot around my mitten.

I didn't try the perfection loop nor the retreaded figure eight. I did the tying indoor, so no cold weather, rain, snow. wind or cold fingers to influence the result.

[roo]

I've finally put the discussed knots to the test!

What happened to just leaving the end loop permanently undisturbed and using object tucking such as:
?

[Dan_Lehman]

It's still unclear to me what sort of things you're attaching to
--in detail.  I.e., why the method Roo continues to ask about
in not possible, and so on.

For it might be possible to build your attachment structures
using a stopper knot.  Brion Toss names a simple hitch
"Knute hitch" in which a bight is put through a small opening,
then the line's tail (stoppered, would be wanted, for you) is
tucked though the bight, which then is drawn back through
the opening to nip the tail and hold (but not able to pull the
tail through!).  With a nice knob of a stopper, this seems to
be something that one could manipulate with gloved hands
--just grabbing the knob, to pull out cord to untie, and the
simple tucking through a big bight (again, assuming you have
such material available) is easy tying to effect in gloves.


. . . beyond the question of needing to tie/untie such things . . .

--dl*
====

[rusty427]

Hi Guys

I love that Double Dragon, But it is a mongrel to tie around something, I use this method, even so it takes practice. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Df7pYB2T6vU

The perfection loop is a good choice, though my old man showed me one the other day, again I don't know its name, but it starts like a Perfection loop, so its easy to tie around something, but just stick a half hitch to finish instead of looping through. It looks good and is easy to tie and undo.

Perfection loop on the right.

rusty

[Hrungnir]

I've finally put the discussed knots to the test!

What happened to just leaving the end loop permanently undisturbed and using object tucking

Hei Roo!

I agree this is a good solution for attaching small objects to backpack and clothings. There were also some good suggestions about cow hitching a permanent loop too.

My original question was a good allround or general purpose fixed loop for outdoor activities like skiing and hiking. The bowline is a simple and easy knot to tie, but it works loose. Attaching objects to backpack and clothings was an example of a situation where this behavior is unacceptable (loss of important equipment).

[Hrungnir]

Hrungnir, thank you for your feedback.  I'm not sure if you know, but there are at least 3 distinct methods for tying a Bowline.  The good old Bowline is convenient to tie.  If you can make it work with different rope material or whatever, it may be worth the effort for mere convenience.  I know it's cool to venture off into other knots, but really the Bowline is popular for good reasons.

Anyway, let's back up and think again about your situation here.  Help me understand something.  You still seem to be wanting to tie these loops with gloves on in the cold.  Well, that doesn't make sense to me because there's no way you can untie these knots with gloves on.  So, whatever you can't untie easily outdoors should be saved for tying indoors where it's warm.  That's how I see it anyway.  I wish you good luck with getting loose a tight Double Dragon when it's 15 degrees below zero.

I'll go back to my suggestion above.  Actually, I'll revise my suggestion to say this is what I would do.  I would tie whatever knots I can tie indoors in the warm.  I would save the Girth (Cow) for outdoors.  I believe I can tie and untie a Girth while wearing gloves.  If not, I can take off the gloves briefly, and I can tie a Girth within a few seconds while I have my gloves off.

Yes, I know you both have the one hand and lightning method for the bowline. I'm not sure if the lightning method would have helped me, but the twine was too short to use the one hand method.

About the mittens: When it's really cold, I don't wanna take off my mittens if I don't have to, but it's not a demand. If I can tie the knot with my mittens on, I can also tie it with frozen hands. I don't wanna tie any knot on a 2mm twine wearing mittens outdoor though Good point about untying. Untying will become a lot more difficult when it's a jammed knot in cold, snowy, windy weather.

The experiment was nice for learning though. Some forum members thought it would be difficult to tie the double dragon in difficult conditions, while I myself thought the Alpine Butterfly End Loop would be easy

[Hrungnir]

I've finally put the discussed knots to the test!

What happened to just leaving the end loop permanently undisturbed and using object tucking

Hei Roo!

I agree this is a good solution for attaching small objects to backpack and clothings. There were also some good suggestions about cow hitching to a permanent loop too.

My original question was a good allround or general purpose fixed loop for outdoor activities like skiing and hiking. The bowline is a simple and easy knot to tie, but it works loose. Attaching objects to backpack and clothings was an example of a situation where this behavior is unacceptable (loss of important equipment).

[Dan_Lehman]

I love that Double Dragon, But it is a mongrel to tie around something,
I use this method, even so it takes practice. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Df7pYB2T6vU
...
rusty

Rusty, you'll do well to follow my tying advice above vis-a-vis
the method shown in the video (and by the Layhands site).
You simply lay the tail across the loop formed in Step-1,
and then fold the loop around,
after which your tail is ready to make those wraps in the
opposite direction --which gives a viable knot on the FIRST
wrap, bolstered by the 2nd (whereas the video requires the
2nd wrap in order to stabilize that other-direction wrapping).

--dl*
====

[sbachar]

For some of these objects, those with permanent rings or attachment points, would a slipped buntline work?

[Hrungnir]

?

I've now tried this setup, roo.

It works pretty well as long as you are attaching one object only. If you attaching more than one object, you will have to thread all the objects through the lanyard of the new object. Cow hitches works better for multiple objects.

I tied a Jug Sling Hitch to my water bottle and used roos method for attaching it to a permanent loop. The method was superb! But again: one item per permanent loop also here.

For some of these objects, those with permanent rings or attachment points, would a slipped buntline work?

Yes, you can probably knot either Slipped Buntline Hitches or Siberian Hitches to these permanent loops. But I would prefer these hitches to connect items to my backpack and not clothings.