Surrey Six Challenge

[Transminator]

Quote from the Surrey Branch: "Now, you ALL have an opportunity to better our Six. I challenge YOU to come up with six knots for general purposes for use in modern rope which may, or may not, include some of "The Surrey Six"."

We'd have to agree on ONE total number of knots (e.g., 6 knots total).  You can't cheat and have alternatives, add-ons or whatever.  You also can't make assumptions like "Well, I showed the customer the Buntline, so now the customer knows the Clove Hitch and the Half Hitch."  No, you showed the customer the Buntline, but did NOT teach the customer the Clove Hitch or the Half Hitch by themselves.  You CAN teach the student various uses of the Buntline.  Six knots are all you get, and six is probably the maximum number of knots you could teach to the average, disinterested "customer".  (Five is even stretching it.)  Then, each person here explains their reasoning behind their system of knots for pure beginners.

It's easy to criticize the Surrey Six, but let's see others come up with a system of six knots for a disinterested customer who knows nearly nothing about knots.  This calls for a new thread so the discussion is focused...

So here we go. A new thread just for this purpose.

Things to consider:
What are the most common applications and scenarios the 6 knots should cover?
In my opinion they should be useful for everyday life (household,camping etc.) but also for extreme scenarios (survival).
You might need to catch animals/fish, put up a tent, tie a parcel, bundle something up, tie things together. You may need to clime trees, abseil, build a hut. your rope supply is probably limited in a survival scenario, so you need knots that can be untied and are easy on the rope.
In every day life you probably use a bend and a binder most. You might need to tow a car, drag something heavy.  
Considering this we need:

A fixed loop, a bend, a binder, a hitch, probably a noose, a fishing knot, a friction hitch.
Do we need a stopper? Wouldn't an overhand knot be sufficient? Well, the surrey six solves that problem by using the figure eight, which is multi-purpose.
A knot that needs a stopper for security should be replaced by a different knot that doesn't.

Here my first tentative list:

1. Zeppelin loop (secure fixed loop, can be easily untied, easy to tie and remember (imo), can be used as hitch (similar to figure 8 of the surrey six), does not need any additional locking mechanism for critical use> abseiling, towing)
2. Zeppelin bend (secure, easily tied and untied, use the same method for loop and bend, works well for different rope sizes too, but in doubt, tuck thinner end twice or use two interlocked zeppelin loops instead)
3. Timber hitch (very simple, surprisingly secure, can be tied under load (especially in combination with a round turn), easily untied and has some resistance for lengthwise pull as well, stopper> tie timber hitch without an object)
4. constrictor (binder, can be used as a makeshift lashing and whipping, alternative hitch, use the double constrictor for heavy duty)
5. uni knot (universal fishing knot, noose, bend)
6. gripping sailor's hitch (friction hitch, put the zeppelin loop at the working end and you can use it for climbing ropes/trees, as tool for putting poles in and out of the ground...)

p.s.: It really hurts to omit so many clever and useful knots such as the butterfly loop etc. But we are talking bare essentials here and if somebody really needs a midline loop, he can tie an overhand not on the bight. I think we all agree that the overhand knot is a knot that everybody knows and thus does not need to occupy any of the 6 available slots and a round turn is also a universal concept (also used in the surrey six) and not really a knot. They also "cheated" by adding the double sheet bend for free, therefore I do the same for the constrictor.

p.p.s: show how to use the available knots as a truckers hitch, which is not really a hitch but a system to apply tension to a rope (and thus tie something down). The truckers hitch can be tied off with the timber hitch (instead of half hitches).

[Sweeney]

I think this is trying too hard to be all things to all people. I favour 6 knots aimed at not just the beginner but set in groups of 6, for example the uni knot is part of a "fisherman's 6" (and some knots would be common to more than one group) - anyone who is not an angler would find this taking up a valuable place. I would apart from that favour including the perfection loop rather than the Zeppelin loop (which is difficult for a beginner to tie) in a "domestic 6" and adding a mid-line loop such as the butterfly or farmer's loop (both are easily tied around the hand). The pile hitch deserves consideration because it is so simple and as such encouraging to try more complex knots. Personally I prefer the strangle knot to the constrictor because it sits more neatly but that is just personal preference - the constrictor is worthy of inclusion in any group. People who have a need for knots such as climbers and sailors are not really our target audience - they need knots from the off. In order to attract an audience the groups might start with something like:

Domestic use around the home & garden
Camping and outdoor pursuits
Fishing (unlike climbing & sailing training is not a requirement before you start)
On the road (eg towing, getting stuck, fastening a load)

General knot books tend to be ordered by knot type (hitches, bends etc) when a beginner would more likely look for a knot suited to their situation (do they know what a "bend" is - esp having seen the fisherman's bend!) hence the idea of groups of say 6.

Barry

[Hrungnir]

1. Alpine Butterfly Bend Loop - a fixed, secure end loop, which won't jam.  http://davidmdelaney.com/alpine-butterfly-loop/Alpine-butterfly-bend-loop.html
2. Alpine Butterfly Bend - an easy to tie, secure bend which won't jam. I think this is a good choice, as we already know the tying method and structure of the ABBL.
3. Alpine Butterfly Loop - identical structure as the two other knots. The tying method is identical to and has all the strengths as the Alpine Butterfly Bend. The loop is secure and can be loaded in either direction. The user can make several Alpine Butterfly Loops on a rope and use it as a ladder. The knot can be used as a rope shortener and to isolate damaged rope - working just like the bend. The user now has all the tools to learn the truckers hitch, poldo tackle and the versatackle at a later point if needed. The user is also a tiny step away from learning multi loops.
4. Reef Knot - weak binder which is difficult to get tight and  will sometimes work loose. However, there's probably no better option for first aid tasks, like binding a bandage. Helpful knot to tie the sweater around the waist or a bandana on the head. To close packages and bags.
5. Double Pile Hitch - a god middle hitch and end hitch. The performance on lengthwise pulls is excellent.
6. Tensionless Hitch - teaches the power of roundturns to make a secure hitch. Finnish the roundturns off with Two Half Hitches.

Note: If the similarities between the three Alpine Butterflies (identical knot structures, identical tying methods, works in the same manner) allows me to call it two knots instead of three, I'll put in a stronger binder as the sixth knot. Corned Beef & Salt Pork Knot would be my choice, as the knot doesn't have to be pressed against the object - unlike the constrictor.

[Dan_Lehman]

1. Alpine Butterfly Bend Loop - a fixed, secure end loop, which won't jam.  http://davidmdelaney.com/alpine-butterfly-loop/Alpine-butterfly-bend-loop.html
2. Alpine Butterfly Bend - an easy to tie, secure bend which won't jam. I think this is a good choice, as we already know the tying method and structure of the ABBL.
3. Alpine Butterfly Loop - identical structure as the two other knots. The tying method is identical to and has all the strengths as the Alpine Butterfly Bend. The loop is secure and can be loaded in either direction. The user can make several Alpine Butterfly Loops on a rope and use it as a ladder. The knot can be used as a rope shortener and to isolate damaged rope - working just like the bend. The user now has all the tools to learn the truckers hitch, poldo tackle and the versatackle at a later point if needed. The user is also a tiny step away from learning multi loops.

...

Note: If the similarities between the three Alpine Butterflies (identical knot structures, identical tying methods, works in the same manner) allows me to call it two knots instead of three, I'll put in a stronger binder as the sixth knot. Corned Beef & Salt Pork Knot would be my choice, as the knot doesn't have to be pressed against the object - unlike the constrictor.

You need to look at these knots more closely --they are hardly
identical.  They also allow variations in dressing such as it took
some lonnnng discussion on this forum to drive home for Ashley's
bend #1452 (!)  .  (And they're hardy the sort of knots one
would want to be trying to tie in really small stuff.)


--dl*
====

[Hrungnir]

You need to look at these knots more closely --they are hardly
identical.  They also allow variations in dressing such as it took
some lonnnng discussion on this forum to drive home for Ashley's
bend #1452 (!)  (And they're hardy the sort of knots one
would want to be trying to tie in really small stuff.)

Perhaps there's something wrong with my eyes, but I can't tell the difference from the backside and frontside of any of these knots, no matter how hard I try! I hope you aren't referring to the obvious fact that the Alpine Butterfly Bend isn't a loop?

My dressings for these knots are also identical. I can't give an answer to how other people dresses these knots.

Edit: I'm able to tie these knots in twine made of hemp. I have to use sewing thread if I'm going to tie the knots in anything more "small stuff" than this.

[knot4u]

1.  Sheet Bend
2.  Bowline
3.  Reef
4.  Figure 8
5.  Roundturn and Three Half Hitches
6.  Bight Slip (Yes, I'm using a precious slot for this so I don't cheat.)

That would be my six if I were teaching an average, disinterested "customer".  It could change if there's something I'm not considering.  Maybe you guys could ask questions and try to prove why this list sucks.  I'm open to improving the list.  If you're wondering, I just noticed after making this list that it's similar to the Surrey Six.

[Hrungnir]

You need to look at these knots more closely --they are hardly
identical. 

Bend Loop at the top, Bend at the left and Loop to the right



Bend Loop at the top, Loop to the left and Bend to the right


As far as I can see, I will end up with three identical bends if I cut the loops....

[Transminator]

1. Alpine Butterfly Bend Loop - a fixed, secure end loop, which won't jam.  
2. Alpine Butterfly Bend - an easy to tie, secure bend which won't jam. I think this is a good choice, as we already know the tying method and structure of the ABBL.
3. Alpine Butterfly Loop - identical structure as the two other knots. The tying method is identical to and has all the strengths as the Alpine Butterfly Bend. The loop is secure and can be loaded in either direction. The user can make several Alpine Butterfly Loops on a rope and use it as a ladder. The knot can be used as a rope shortener and to isolate damaged rope - working just like the bend. The user now has all the tools to learn the truckers hitch, poldo tackle and the versatackle at a later point if needed. The user is also a tiny step away from learning multi loops.
4. Reef Knot - weak binder which is difficult to get tight and  will sometimes work loose. However, there's probably no better option for first aid tasks, like binding a bandage. Helpful knot to tie the sweater around the waist or a bandana on the head. To close packages and bags.
5. Double Pile Hitch - a god middle hitch and end hitch. The performance on lengthwise pulls is excellent.
6. Tensionless Hitch - teaches the power of roundturns to make a secure hitch. Finnish the roundturns off with Two Half Hitches.
Note: If the similarities between the three Alpine Butterflies (identical knot structures, identical tying methods, works in the same manner) allows me to call it two knots instead of three, I'll put in a stronger binder as the sixth knot. Corned Beef & Salt Pork Knot would be my choice, as the knot doesn't have to be pressed against the object - unlike the constrictor.

Regarding:
1. > I find that one fiendishly difficult to tie, remember and dress correctly.
2. > The tying method differs a lot, at least for me. the bend and loop, yes, but not the butterfly bend loop. The end structure and dressing is the same, yes, but getting there is a different matter.
3. > I thought long about whether or not putting the butterfly loop in but eventually decided against it, because: you hardly ever need a midline loop (I think) but if you do, you can help yourself with an overhand on the bight. Therefore I did not want to use a precious slot for a midline loop.
Multiple loops: again, I never really had the need for one and the poldo tackle is useless.
4. > I personally would not want to waste a precious slot for it. you pointed out the shortcomings yourself.
5. > though the pile hitch is good, it is difficult to tie (and remember how to) without excess to the end of the object. If you want to tie it around a tree, you already have a problem.
Corned Beef & Salt Pork Knot> this is another knot I find rather cumbersome to tie and remember and you can't use it for much else.

@ Barry
I know where you are coming from but the task is to find 6 and only 6 that get you far for almost any scenario. The 4 groups you suggested already give you potentially 24 different knots.

@knot4u
I decided against the sheet bend because it is not secure enough. I picked the zeppelin because it is secure enough to join ropes I intend to use for abseiling if needs be. The same applies to the bowline. I love the bowline and it is very quickly tied and my choice for almost all cases I need a fixed loop, but again I needed to consider critical use and there you need a backup (be it an extra tuck (double bight bowline, yosemite) or a stopper (strangle knot)).
The reef for me is too week as a binder and I can't use it for much else. The constrictor is more versatile.
I decided against the figure 8 because it is prone to jam, though versatile, I don't need its versatility. I don't need it as a hitch, as I have a hitch already in the list or can use the zeppelin in the same way. I don't need it as a bend, as I have the zeppelin (that is another reason I picked the zeppelin loop, I tie it the same way I tie the bend and is thus easy to remember). I don't need the figure 8 as stopper, the loop is strong, but more difficult to tie around an object.
I don't find a bight slip so important and I certainly would not use a slot for it. I tried to use knots that can be untied without needing a slip instead.

Regarding my own list: I tried it yesterday and it is not easy to use a timber hitch to tie off a trucker without loosing tension. So I might consider using a slot for the half hitch but then again with the available knots a versatacklle is no problem.

[knot4u]

Just so this thread doesn't get out of hand like the other thread, the six knots are for the "average, disinterested customer" as far as I understand the original post.  We have plenty of "Favorite Knots" threads.  The focus here is a bit different.  I'm assuming people who have declared they go climbing, rappelling/abseiling or other similar activities, typically don't fall into the category of average, disinterested customer.  I'm not even partially suggesting the knots on my list are suitable for life-critical activities.  Assume that you MAY DIE if you use any of my listed knots for such activities.  Also, I'm assuming people who regular go fishing are typically not the average, disinterested customer.

[Sweeney]

OK here goes with my 6 with brief reasons:

Perfection loop - easy to tie and holds together better then a bowline when tension is released (will also work in bungee cord/very stiff washing line where a bowline won't; contrary to Ashley I find it not that difficult to untie in synthetic material).
Zeppelin Bend - where you want to undo the knot afterwards
Fisherman's knot - where you are not bothered about cutting the cord/rope if necessary but almost impossible to get wrong (untidy maybe but just as effective if the overhand knots don't marry)
Pile hitch - needs the end of the item tied to but none better for exercising a pull for tightening a constrictor etc or mooring for the amateur on holiday
Strangle Knot - neater than a constrictor and good for temp whipping (the noose version is easy for someone to understand later and great for thimbles)
Fisherman's Bend aka Anchor Bend - finished with a half hitch is better than 2 half hitches and no more difficult.

I often use the Zeppelin loop bit's not easy to tie for Mr Average-and-not-really-interested; the figure 8 is a possible but I excluded it as most people get by with an overhand knot (they also get by with an overhand loop usually).

Barry

[Dan_Lehman]

As far as I can see, I will end up with three identical bends if I cut the loops....

Well, yes, the "nub" is the same (though from tyer to tyer there
might well be differences in the dressing --Wright & Magowan
specified a particular crossing of the eye legs, e.g., and yours
like many other presentations don't cross).  But the loading of
the "bend-loop" differs, assuredly, from the other two; also,
its tying method requires an end; further, one must make a
choice in this knot as to the orientation of parts --it is not a
symmetric structure, after all.

--dl*
====

[Transminator]

Just so this thread doesn't get out of hand like the other thread, the six knots are for the "average, disinterested customer" as far as I understand the original post.  We have plenty of "Favorite Knots" threads.  The focus here is a bit different.  I'm assuming people who have declared they go climbing, rappelling/abseiling or other similar activities, typically don't fall into the category of average, disinterested customer.  I'm not even partially suggesting the knots on my list are suitable for life-critical activities.  Assume that you MAY DIE if you use any of my listed knots for such activities.  Also, I'm assuming people who regular go fishing are typically not the average, disinterested customer.

My "favorite knots" selection would be different (e.g. the Siberian and the bowline have their place there, as they are good knots for most situations). But that aside I was thinking this: What 6 knots can I give to anybody to get through life, even if they never learn any other knot. I take the overhand knot for granted.

If a friend asked me to show him a good loop knot, I usually show them the bowline, as it is fast and reliable. But for the 6 knot challenge I decided against it as I had to teach them a variation or a backup for critical use. Therefore I put the zeppelin loop on the list as it is still relatively easy to tie but does not need the extra backup.

So I was looking for a "universal set of knots" that can be used in everyday life as well as in a survival scenario. That is why I put one universal fishing knot on the list.  6 knots that can be put on a single sheet of paper to carry in your wallet for reference.
Of course, if somebody plans to go fishing or rock climbing, that person is/should be interested in at least learning the knots he/she needs for that task. And if some uninterested customer asked to give him 6 knots for fishing or 6 knots for household and garden, the list would be different.
But I started on the assumption of an uninterested customer who only wants a set of knots for "everything". We convinced him to accept 6 (though he rather had 3 or only 1) in addition to the overhand he already knows.

[DerekSmith]

Because the majority of us have not been taught how to use knots, we have lost the knowledge of just how useful cordage is, and can be.  Instead, we turn to glue, tape, velcro and bungees.  We use them because we have no alternatives, because we have never learnt how to use cordage for these jobs.

For me then the challenge for the Surrey Six, is to choose six 'knots' that best allow me to teach the USE of cordage.  Secondly, but for me, just as important, is the method of tying - it must be easy, memorable and reliable.

So my selection will focus on routine tasks I come across and will also be influenced by 'How to use it' and 'How to make it'.

1.    Top of the list for me then in terms of simplicity and functionality, is the Round Turn(s).  Not a knot? That is debatable, but in my book it is one of the most important structures that cordage users need to understand and utilise because of its incredible ability to exponentially shed the rope load into the stationary bar with virtually no reduction in rope strength, and giving the user the ability to 'hold' large load forces or controllably release them.  It should arguably be considered to be the 'grounding' for any hitch intended to take a significant load.

2.    Next up has to be the Half Hitch (or multiples) who's function is to terminate end loads and to hold the end (or a mid line bight end) in place during use.  I had considered nominating the simple hitch here, as it is my preference for many 'round turn and hitch' jobs, but it does rely on a stable coefficient of friction which might not be the case in use, and the half hitch is seen by most folk as a 'proper' termination.

3.    Up until about a year ago, I would never have considered proposing the Carrick as my third knot.  It is a lovely knot, but is just too damn hard to remember and make.  Then I realised that the Chinese Button knot method, shown to us by Willeke a few years back, made the carrick structure as an intermediate step, and that getting to this intermediate step was simplicity itself by the method she described.  Stopping the 'Button knot' at the carrick structure naturally produces a Carrick Loop - strong, reliable, and utterly jam proof.  It took only a trivial amount of experimentation to adapt the same method to tying the Carrick as a bend, with all the same quality attributes.  I now use the Carrick almost exclusively as my loop and bend of choice - even tying it inline on a bight as an inline loop.

Nominating this knot as my third choice, really does bring home the critical importance of the method of tying.  There is no question that this knot would not even feature on my list were it not for the simple, fast and memorable method brought to us through the Chinese button knot method.

4.    For me, this list would be meaningless without the Constrictor made by the 'Loop, fold over thumb' method.  As I make my Clove, Constrictor, Double Constrictor and Boa, all by the same method, they are to me all the 'same' knot, just with different degrees of grip and security, much as round turns are round turns, the only difference is 'how many round turns'.  The Constrictor is my proverbial 'third pair of safe hands', and I use it wherever I want a tight binding that will resist movement and flogging.  I also used to use it as the intermediary to producing my once favoured gardening loop - The Myrtle - make a constrictor, pass the end around the object to be 'looped' and put the end through the Constrictor - pull the constrictor and it pirouettes to wind the end into the ultra simple Myrtle, but this use has fallen by the wayside with the discovery of the simple Carrick loop method.

5.    Another newcomer to my list of often used knots has to now be the incredibly useful Gleipner.  Ultra easy to tie,  Ultra easy to tighten, massively strong, adjustable, and even easy to untie in hairy garden twine.  For me, this knot has a great future as more and more applications fall under its spell - I even found myself using it the other day as a delightfully controllable and adjustable inline tensioner...

6.    Finally, I must add my baby to the list - the KC Hitch - although I do not use it as often as the first five, it is without question my all time favourite for applying a hauling load to slippery or awkward loads, whether I am making it in cord, rope, chain or wire.  My only reservation is using it on objects that you do not want to damage, this is because as the levers open, they can apply an enormous compression force onto the gripped surface (necessary to develop the frictional grip) and can bite into, or 'bruise' the gripped object.  With this one proviso, the KC is ultra easy to make and use, and if you are using the sling variant, it won't jam - it can even be put to use as a sliding grip hitch on smooth objects such as scaffold poles, spars, masts etc.

Finally, don't forget that in use we use 'rope machines' which generally are combinations of knots, so the six 'knots' in this list should be considered almost as 'Lego blocks' with which to construct our final desired 'machine'.  For example, I used the KC on a pole and the Gleipner as an adjustable loop to hold loads at a fixed height, or the inline Carrick loop and half hitches to construct the Truckers 'Pulley' hitch, and of course, the half hitches ( tucked or single) are used everywhere to tidy up and lock up those otherwise 'lose ends'.

Derek

 

[knot4u]

What's a KC Hitch? If I recall that was some invention revealed on this site, right? You gotta post a link to that, or else you're in your own cave, buddy!

I'm really diggin' the proposal of the Round Turn and the Half Hitch.  I was thinking about going that direction.  However, there's a problem with trying to teach those structures to a "disinterested customer".  Somehow you have to get them to appreciate all the different uses.  That's permissible here, but it just may take awhile.

=====

Generally, I think any list here is lacking if you cannot easily tie a Trucker Hitch and a versatile binder.  If you can address tying down a load and binding something, then you probably cover over 90% of the things an "average, disinterested customer" will do.

On my list above, I know the Reef is not the best binder, but it works OK and also it's important for the "average, disinterested customer" to be able to tie their shoes properly.  Notice I have the Bight Slip there also, and so a proper bow can be tied on the Reef to form properly tied shoelaces.  If you don't have the Reef on your list, then you're not allowed to show your customer how to tie a Reef instead of a Granny!  Anyway, my Roundturn and Three Half Hitches can also be a binder, and would be better than the Reef in some instances.

As to the Bight Slip, another big reason I put that there is because the Bight Slip and the Figure Eight allow the customer to tie a slipped Figure Eight for the Trucker Hitch (not my favorite, but It'll do for my customer).  Some of you have the Butterfly Loop and that would be better.  I didn't list the Butterfly Loop because I used a slot for the Bowline, which is more versatile and easier than the Butterfly for regular applications.

[DerekSmith]

Hi K4U,

I think that you are mixing up teaching people six knots with teaching people how to use them.

The knots need to be simple and memorable, and at the same time totally effective.  Then when the audience can tie these basic knots, only then can we start to show them how to use them.

Teach a class full of children how to make a round turn - then take the very biggest and the smallest and show how the smallest can easily hold the heaviest one aloft with one hand and can then lower them in total control - the look of realisation on their faces is priceless - rope and knots are powerful - suddenly they want to learn more.

The challenge is in part choosing the knots to teach, but the greatest challenge is choosing the examples that demonstrate the usefulness of cordage and knots.  Perhaps the next thread might be - ways to demonstrate the Surrey Six...

Derek