Surrey Six Challenge

[xarax]

if the disinterested customer first sees the application he wants, then he is more likely to gather enough motivation to focus on how to use the recommended knot to get the job done.

   I do not think so. If the disinterested "customer"  sees the application he wants, he would probably chose to satisfy this need without using knots at all !  ( he would buy a plastic fastener, α metal carabiner, etc...) . The motivation comes with/after the knowledge. If he knows a small set of properly chosen knots, then he will be motivated to use this knowledge in his everyday life, as man has done from time immemorial. The "customer" will not learn any fishing knot, if he just want "his job done", that is, to eat fish ! If he knows how to fish, he would be motivated to catch the fishes and eat them...First the knowledge of the tool, then the application.
   If you show to somebody a protractor, and tell him that "an angle is what this tool measures". you will never achieve to persuade him that the knowledge of the properties of angles is useful, and he will never incorporate the idea of angles in his thinking. No wonder that such a failed teaching method has created a whole generation of mathematically illiterate young people...
   

[knot4u]

  I do not think so. If the disinterested "customer"  sees the application he wants, he would probably chose to satisfy this need without using knots at all !   ( he would buy a plastic fastener, α metal carabiner, etc...)...

You misunderstood what I meant and went off in a different direction.  As an example of what I mean, the customer wants to tie down a tent and sees "Tie Down a Tent" as a topic, instead of the list of knots first.  Categories like "Gripping Hitch" are probably meaningless to the customer.

So, the knots database is organized by application.  As I said above, the customer then searches for the application that is closest to their application.  It's a simple, but important, change of how the knots are presented to the disinterested customer.

Anyway, you don't have to agree, but I'm confident this technique would work for my niece, nephew, dad and mom, who all have no fascination with knots.

[xarax]

You misunderstood what I meant ...

 
   I do not thing so...   You were very clear, and I am not very dull.  
   First, teach the "customer" a hitch. Then, ask him/her if he/she can discover an application that this hitch could be used, in some way. If he/she comes out, with a big smile in his/her face, and say : "Hey ! I can tie down my tent with this thing ! ", then, and then only, you would have succeed something ! You teach people the tools, first, and they will discover the applications for them by themselves, later.

[knot4u]

You misunderstood what I meant ...

 
   I do not thing so...   You were very clear, and I am not very dull.  
   First, teach the "customer" a hitch. Then, ask him/her if he/she can discover an application that this hitch could be used, in some way. If he/she comes out, with a big smile in his/her face, and say : "Hey ! I can tie down my tent with this thing ! ", then, and then only, you would have succeed something ! You teach people the tools, first, and they will discover the applications for them by themselves, later.

OK, now you're off on a different thread.  This thread is about providing a list to disinterested customers.  You won't be there to explain anything, or maybe the disinterested customer is looking at the list of knots a year after your lecture to them while they dozed off.

Agh, this thread is going in circles.  I think I'm done here.

[Transminator]

This thread is about providing a list to disinterested customers.  You won't be there to explain anything, or maybe the disinterested customer is looking at the list of knots a year after your lecture to them while they dozed off.
Agh, this thread is going in circles.  I think I'm done here.

Exactly. That is why it was suggested to always teach knots in context, i.e. with at least some applications of that knot.
My idea of that list would be similar to the 1 page pdf file of the original surrey six.
It should contain a brief description of the knot, what it is for and (perhaps more imporantly: what it isn't for > do's and don'ts), a diagram that shows clearly how to tie it and two or three small illustrations of applied us of each particular knot.

Example:
Say we put the Blake Hitch on the list:
We show how to tie it with a clear diagram
We give a brief description of its function and intented use (climbing a rope (illustration)
Additional uses: ascend a pole in combination with a fixed loop (illustration), tightening tent lines by creating an adjustable loop (illustration) ...
do's: do use extra turns to increase the amount of friction if needed (slippery material e.g.)
do use a stopper knot for safety when using it as an ascending knot...
etc.

P.S.:
The Blake Hitch seems to work fine also as a regular hitch (with perpendicular direction of pull) and the adjustable loop can also function as a hitch.
With extra turns it seems to perform similarly well as the gripping sailors hitch or the icicle hitch (in my first tests). For that reason I am considering adding Blake's Hitch to my list in favor of the timber hitch and the sailor's hitch, which would free a slot for an additional knot.

[oneiros]

To my mind, the essential beginner knots should be easy to remember, easy to tie, and difficult to mess up should they be tied imperfectly.  To this end, I'd choose the following knots for this challenge:

Figure-eight Knot	A good stopper that forms a foundation for the following two knots.
Figure-eight Loop	The only loop that's easier to tie is the overhand loop, to which this loop is superior. It should be easy to remember too, now that the beginner is familiar with the figure-eight knot.  If he messes it up, he'll probably wind up tying the overhand loop, which will still probably be good enough to do the job.
Figure-eight Noose	Once again, the figure-eight pattern comes in handy.  If the beginner messes up the tying, he'll likely wind up with the Simple Noose, which will again probably be good enough.
Zeppelin Bend	The fisherman's knot is easier, since everyone already knows how to tie overhand knots.  But teaching them "b and q and tuck them through" should make it easy enough to remember how to tie the Zeppelin, which is far superior.
Double Constrictor	Simple enough, and obviously very secure.
Turquoise Turtle Knot	Might as well teach them to tie their shoelaces securely.

[DerekSmith]

I think that some of us are starting from different positions here.

The reason I proposed a list of 'Test Uses' was so we might evaluate the some twenty or thirty different knots proposed as 'The New Six'.  We need some way of taking the valuable proposals posters have made and resolve them in some way to a usable list of Six - otherwise, all the proposals will simply sit here without an consensus as to what might actually make a good set to offer to the proverbial 'disinterested customer'.

Personally, I believe that sets such as 'The Surrey Six', or as this might turn out to be  - 'The IGKT Surrey Six' have great potential value in bringing people back to the use of cordage.  Cordage is massively useful, but only if you have a rudimentary set of knots that allow you to use the cord  reasonably proficiently.  All too often, users have no knot knowledge, they stack a set of overhands and swear when the whole thing comes loose at first gust of wind - then they have to face the ridicule for their ineptitude and cut the damn thing to get the jumble off again.

An 'Optimal Six' for 'Layman Use' would at least have the opportunity of giving people a tool for potentially hundreds of uses (once you had taught them and given them some sense of potential usage) - the perfect six to offer to teach to every school child.

I think the IGKT almost has a duty to evaluate and prepare such a list - those we teach these knots to will be the future of the IGKT...

Derek

[Hrungnir]

The reason I proposed a list of 'Test Uses' was so we might evaluate the some twenty or thirty different knots proposed as 'The New Six'.  We need some way of taking the valuable proposals posters have made and resolve them in some way to a usable list of Six - otherwise, all the proposals will simply sit here without an consensus as to what might actually make a good set to offer to the proverbial 'disinterested customer'.

I agree with this one. But rather looking at one specific problem the user might be interested in solving, we should also look at which knots solves most problems. Adjusting tentlines is a good argument to teach the tautline hitch, but there are several other knots which can solve the same problem (Clove and two half hitches can be used in several other situations, while adjustable grip hitch is a more secure adjustable loop hitch).

As general purpose knots, I do believe the IGKT Six "must have" is: a Hitch, a Bend, a Binder and perhaps a Fixed Loop. This leaves room for two or three types of other knots.


My attempt to make a list of type of knots the user might be interested in:

Stopper

End bend
Bight bend

End loop
Mid loop
Adjustable loop
Multipe loops
Noose

Binder

Vertical pull hitch
End hitch
Bight hitch
Crossing hitch
Ring hitch
Pole hitch
Hitch tied under load
Hitch able to remove slack

Shortenings

Splices
Lashings
Whippings
Coiling rope
Fishing knots
Decorative knots
Rope systems (Mechanical advantage)
Various (Bottle sling, barrel hitch, shoelaces, neckties, bow tie, swings, ladders, heaving, etc)

We could then all attempt to use the various proposed knots and see which ones we find to score the highest for a number of parameters.

Perhaps score out of five 0= crap -  5 = perfection for;

Ease of tying
Ease of untying
Getting it right
Speed
Simplicity
...?

When we can agree on which tasks must be solved, I agree that a rating system is a great idea.