I realize that knots need do more than bear loads at some point --or, at least, the expected use. This is something your teen-age son might be excused to be overlooking ("at once" ; with reflection, he might do better), but not you, who boast of wet sea boots and maritime bowline usage.
I understand that you made an erroneous statement, and now you try a desperate contre-attaque, just in case...
Ok, I will not charge you
more for this...
1. I did not say that the not-collared loop is a
"bowline" (!), or that it is a safe loop to use without a collar, in maritime
or any other use ! Read my lips :
I do not expect such a simple two-coils knot to grip the tall "adequately", just "satisfactory well", until it is secured even further by two half hitches, for example. The main idea is to device a mid-line knot that, when tightened, forces the main line that goes through it to bend, to make an L or U turn, so it becomes far easier to block its movement/slippage.
It is expected that those knots are sensible to the width of the bight, the strength of the pull, as well as to the used material.
it [was meant to have] the gripping structure of a "jam" noose. (in the sense of ABoK#1228)
Have you read those words, or lips, of mine ? If yes, you should have realized that your first round of contre-attaque missed your target completely...
So, when you boast of been able to criticize a knot, read the words, or the lips, of the person that presents it, MORE CAREFULLY, and then practice tutorship...
Your flair for drama will win you a photo from me, before I retire.
Thank you very much, indeed ! However, if this
"before I retire" is not yet another figure of speech, in accordance to
your flair of drama, I would like something more :
Your unearthed notebooks, perhaps with fresh comments about the knots shown there !
But, again, my point is that stabilization of the knot is more than a during-loading task, in common applications, and the collar is needed for that, in both of these cases.
Again, my point is that the "proper" collar s primary task is to pass the tail through the nipping loop for a second time...and that, incidentally, miraculously, the "proper" collar of the common bowline manages to stabilize this nipping loop, and prevent it from deforming into a helix, WITHOUT any additional structure. In the double, crossed-coils bowline, this goes one step further : the collar is not needed to stabilize the nipping loop at all, which is very well stabilized by itself. Of course, with heavy loading, every part of the knot comes together, and the collar would help the nipping loop from deforming ...but its role in this would only be secondary, because the structure of the crossed-coils nipping loop manages to do this by itself, very well.
So, I would predict that a "ABoK31010, with a loose collar, would hold
...a [common] Bowline can hold, even when the collar is very loose...
...BUT a double, crossed-coils bowline, with a loose collar, would hold MUCH MUCH better ! Is this so hard for you to understand, I wonder... That proves that the role of the "proper" collar in stabilizing the nipping loop is only secondary, in comparison to its role as
a means of the tail to be secured by the nipping loop easier. It proves that the collar is a structure of the tail, AND that the security of the tail is the primary purpose of this structure . It is not meant to prove that we do not need the collar, for KnotLand "God" s sake !
You may examine my photo for edification, and then, as you say, "please, correct this erroneous comment ! ".
2. I never said that, momentarily, even the "ABoK#1010" would not hold, especially if it is tied with this ancient, worn out, hardened, rough, eager to retire material of yours...
As you said by yourself, with my slippery kernmantle material, you would need magic powers, (and no wind...) to achieve this. If what I have written was indicating such a thing, I have no difficulty to say that I made an erroneous statement ! What I meant is that the collar is, evidently, MUCH MUCH less needed,
as a means of stabilizing the nipping loop, in the case of the double, crossed-coils nipping loop, than in the case of the common bowline. Now,
in securing the tail from sliping through the niping loop, the collar might even be MORE indispensable in the case of the former, than in the later...because it might turn out that, without any presence of a collar, the single nipping loop - if, somehow, is stabilized by an external means - holds
better than the double nipping loop ! So, I am afraid your contre-attaque fired at a decoy, and missed this target as well...
So, do you say that the maximum loads that a not-collared naked nipping loop of a "ABoK#1010" can bear, and a double. crossed-coils nipping loo can bear, ON THE SAME MATERIAL, whatever it is, are even
comparable ? If you do, then mail to me those notebooks of yours
at once !
I simply stated my familiarity with the knot (which included my first testing, by a then IGKT member).
I have
never questioned your familiarity with this knot,
as well as with many others. But what exactly was the point of this declaration, which comes
times and times again, with so many knots ? I said that
"Along with the other dozens of dozens of the knots you devised (?!?) ( nothing earth shattering, you just saw something anybody else could do...and then you have forgotten it, like anybody else could do, too...), it is not a miracle that you have tied this, too...However, you have not understood its importance, not then, not even now, decades later ! " And I said that because the strangeness of this knot has to do with how miraculously well it holds, given its simple structure, and not with the wider curvature of its Standing part ! What you sought in this knot was
" making the SPart take a gradual curvature into the knot... [and] had one token of it tested..."(sic). Well, I have seen something else/more, much more important...and tested it with
dozens of tokens. Of course, I would nt put
anybody on that chair, not even you, with all your Lehudini abilities of escaping criticism and suspended animation...
P.S. Nice picture, IN the Wild of your entangled quantum environment...I guess it will take a while to desipher your similary
arranged notebooks, so you should start
at once !