A better method for tying the Alpine Butterfly Bend(a.k.a. Strait Bend)...And...

[BrianDKing]

That is slick, thank you

[Sweeney]

Nice clear video - thanks.

Barry

[xarax]

   Nice and clear. Thank you.
   You could possibly reach the stage where the two ropes are twisted around each other, by twisting the one end of the double line ( i.e., the two lines together, as a pair ) and not the red only line around the green line.
   When we can no longer communicate with gestures, we are obliged to use words, but the opposite is also true ! 

[knot4u]

Thank you for the video.  I did not get that from your original text description.

It's amazing how different brains work differently.  I tried your method.  I still think the hybrid method is easier for the loop(s) and the bend.  The hybrid method is nearly impossible to forget.  Also, the hybrid method could be tied easily by using, for example, gloves and pliers in one hand.  Could you do that with your method?  Perhaps you could if you practiced a lot.  But how about if you're bending shoe laces?

The hybrid method just seems "big, simple and idiot-proof" in my mind.

[roo]

The 'Butterfly Bend' YouTube video has been uploaded.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9ZJJAowdEc

After trying this about a dozen times, I am not liking this method.  It needlessly introduces twist into your standing parts, and the less slack you have the bigger mess this makes. 

If you were to adapt this method to twist the ends and leave the standing parts undisturbed, you'd have the method that I use and seems most natural and intuitive, based on the structure of the bend.

[roo]

The hybrid method just seems "big, simple and idiot-proof" in my mind.

Actually, I would specifically avoid teaching the "hybrid method" to folks as it can, with one wrong twist, lead to an evil impostor of the Butterfly Bend, as discussed here:

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1259.msg8673#msg8673

and here:

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1892.msg13064#msg13064

[alpineer]

   You could possibly reach the stage where the two ropes are twisted around each other, by twisting the one end of the double line ( i.e., the two lines together, as a pair ) and not the red only line around the green line.

Absolutely. I chose to twist in this manner to demonstrate that it can be done in one smooth step instead of the two steps required by the "two lines together" modification. My methods are about the ergonomics of the tying process (i.e. minimizing hand/finger movement, maintaining the hands in a natural/relaxed position, and transitioning seamlessly from one step to the next. With a little practice one can blur the steps together even more than what is shown in the video.

alpineer

[alpineer]

The hybrid method just seems "big, simple and idiot-proof" in my mind.

I'm very familiar with the hybrid method. It's what I use for tying the eyeloop.

alpineer

[alpineer]

If you were to adapt this method to twist the ends and leave the standing parts undisturbed, you'd have the method that I use and seems most natural and intuitive, based on the structure of the bend.

I'm not sure if I have enough information to fully understand and address your issue, but you might try/adapt this to your specific circumstance. [For eyeloop version only] If there's enough slack in the rope, hang it over your R.wrist(for R.handers), so that your wrist is supporting the bight at the Turn. Now pick up the bight where it runs over your wrist (but keep your wrist in between the two hanging lines) and twist from the end. This may not work for you.

Now, for the bend version it couldn't get any simpler. Just hold the paired ropes together with your R.hand and twist the ends with your Left. In other words if you don't want the standing lines to twist, then twist the ends instead. You have options with this method.  

alpineer  

[alpineer]

Actually, I would specifically avoid teaching the "hybrid method" to folks as it can, with one wrong twist, lead to an evil impostor of the Butterfly Bend

I've never recommended using the hybrid method for tying the the B.Bend.  

I know you are bent on warning about this "evil imposter" but such a strong stance is unjustified IMO. Regarding the Loop version,yes, you can tie your so called evil imposter using the hybrid method, but that one wrong twist is so incredibly easy to distinguish from the only other option(the correct twist)(i.e. one way or the other) that I ask people to tie it wrongly so that they can see and feel the difference. They never forget the difference. So there is virtually no danger of ever tying it wrongly. Tying it wrongly disrupts the flow of the tying process when compared with the correct way. My guess is you are twisting the hanging lines together as a pair instead of crossing the one line over the other which maintains a smooth transition into the next step. This smooth transition doesn't happen when you cross on the wrong side. So, you don't have to remember which way is the correct way. Try both ways. There's only two options here. The simplest, easiest way (the way that feels better in the hand) is the right way. Do this a few times and you will never forget.

alpineer  

[roo]

Actually, I would specifically avoid teaching the "hybrid method" to folks as it can, with one wrong twist, lead to an evil impostor of the Butterfly Bend

I've never recommended using the hybrid method for tying the the B.Bend.  

I know you are bent on warning about this "evil imposter" but such a strong stance is unjustified IMO. Regarding the Loop version,yes, you can tie your so called evil imposter using the hybrid method, but that one wrong twist is so incredibly easy to distinguish from the only other option(the correct twist)(i.e. one way or the other) that I ask people to tie it wrongly so that they can see and feel the difference. They never forget the difference. So there is virtually no danger of ever tying it wrongly. Tying it wrongly disrupts the flow of the tying process when compared with the correct way. My guess is you are twisting the hanging lines together as a pair instead of crossing the one line over the other which maintains a smooth transition into the next step. This smooth transition doesn't happen when you cross on the wrong side. So, you don't have to remember which way is the correct way. Try both ways. There's only two options here. The simplest, easiest way (the way that feels better in the hand) is the right way. Do this a few times and you will never forget.

alpineer  

I was replying to knot4u.  But regardless of that, why bother with a technique that allows an impostor when there are various methods that do not allow impostors and are just as easy or easier to employ?

Do you really want to append the above paragraph on how to avoid the impostor when presenting the method each time?  Who's to say all those caveats won't be dropped when Bob shows it to Fred who shows it to Jane who shows it to who knows how many other people?

[alpineer]

I was replying to knot4u.  But regardless of that, why bother with a technique that allows an impostor when there are various methods that do not allow impostors and are just as easy or easier to employ?
Do you really want to append the above paragraph on how to avoid the impostor when presenting the method each time?  Who's to say all those caveats won't be dropped when Bob shows it to Fred who shows it to Jane who shows it to who knows how many other people?

When you reply on a public forum you are replying to everyone who reads it. Do as you choose. The evil imposter is a complete non-issue regarding the hybrid method and any time unnecessarily spent teaching the "hybrid" will be a result of counteracting the negative propaganda you seem compelled to disseminate.

alpineer      

[knot4u]

The hybrid method just seems "big, simple and idiot-proof" in my mind.

Actually, I would specifically avoid teaching the "hybrid method" to folks as it can, with one wrong twist, lead to an evil impostor of the Butterfly Bend, as discussed here:

To prevent an evil impostor, all I have to do is remember "cross in front, cross in front" as I'm using the hybrid method.  At this point, I would have to try really hard to tie an evil impostor.  I sometimes get the evil impostor if I do NOT use the hybrid method.  I guess different brains think differently...

[alpineer]

To prevent an evil impostor, all I have to do is remember "cross in front, cross in front" as I'm using the hybrid method.  At this point, I would have to try really hard to tie an evil impostor.  I sometimes get the evil impostor if I do NOT use the hybrid method.  I guess different brains think differently...

Thank You knot4u.

alpineer

[TMCD]

What is the evil imposter? I didn't know the Butterfly loop and Bend had one? Thanks in advance.