Help Requested

[magboggs]

Can anyone help Jonathan, I pretty sure someone out there can.  Thanks  Margaret

Jonathan's contact details:   jon.eleanor@googlemail.com
Dear Sir/Madam,

I have been searching for some considerable time for someone who might have the knowledge and expertise necessary to reproduce a matched set of sixteenth century 'Turks head' sword hilt knots using soft iron wire in the manner of the period.

I am a collector of sixteenth century arms and armour and these particular knots are required to complete the restoration of a part-original rapier and dagger set dating from c1590.

The link below should give a reasonable idea of the kind of work which I require - binding of the grip is not the issue - merely the execution of the multi strand (each strand made up of two evenly twisted soft iron wire) continuous plaits at top and bottom of the grips of both rapier and dagger (ie four knots in total).

http://wallacelive.wallacecollection.org/eMuseumPlus?service=direct/1/ResultDetailView/result.t1.collection_detail.$TspImage.link&sp=10&sp=Scollection&sp=SfieldValue&sp=0&sp=2&sp=2&sp=SdetailView&sp=0&sp=Sdetail&sp=1&sp=F

On practicalities - I can supply all necessary materials by post. I am of course happy to discuss a suitable fee.

I do hope that you will be able to point me in the direction of someone who may be able to help - I hope you (like me) might also regard it as a rather interesting side project!

Yours sincerely

Jonathan Emmett

[skyout]

Hi Margaret,

The links don't work for me but "goldenknots" works with metal. Perhaps you could send Jonathan his link: http://www.golden-knots.com/

Wish I could see the pics in the link.

[Dan_Lehman]

> the linkS don't work for me ...

There is but ONE URLink, sadly split and auto-activated as two,
it seems. 
But when I take the single (lonnnnnnng) URLink, I at first got
a msg. that my session had timed out, and otherwise was put
at a page with several linked images, none of which were of
apparent relevance to the OP question.

Perhaps the OP can send a URLink and the necessary search
terms to use when there to get to the particular details?

--dl*
====

[JonE]

Hi chaps - apologies that the first link did not work - please try these - the third gives the best view of the plaited ends of the grip and you can see from this small selection that this style of finishing was very typical on swords of the period:

http://wallacelive.wallacecollection.org/eMuseumPlus?service=direct/1/ResultDetailView/result.t1.collection_detail.$TspImage.link&sp=10&sp=Scollection&sp=SfieldValue&sp=0&sp=0&sp=2&sp=SdetailView&sp=17&sp=Sdetail&sp=1&sp=F

http://wallacelive.wallacecollection.org/eMuseumPlus?service=direct/1/ResultDetailView/result.t1.collection_detail.$TspImage.link&sp=10&sp=Scollection&sp=SfieldValue&sp=0&sp=0&sp=2&sp=SdetailView&sp=0&sp=Sdetail&sp=1&sp=F

http://wallacelive.wallacecollection.org/eMuseumPlus?service=direct/1/ResultDetailView/result.t1.collection_detail.$TspImage.link&sp=10&sp=Scollection&sp=SfieldValue&sp=0&sp=0&sp=2&sp=SdetailView&sp=53&sp=Sdetail&sp=3&sp=F

any help or advice much appreciated!

J

[SS369]

Good day JonE.

The links provided did not take me to any specific image. They did take me to the website though I had to "restart session". Perhaps due to security software on my PC.

I browsed the collection of swords and rapiers manually and I found a common thread (no pun intended). They all are using a 3 part by multi-bight Turks head with two or more passes (retracing the original paths of the parent Turks head  knot. The exact number of bights can't be determined by me using the images. You could, if you have physical access to the item, count the curves at one edge of the knot and that will be the bight count.
Some of the examples I viewed looked to have the wire twisted prior to tying the TK and some looked like the "rope look" was perhaps chiseled by the artisan.

To install these knots would require actually having the item in hand for those swords that the hand guard connects to the handle at each end.

I feel reasonably confident that there would be a competent knot tyer close to London who could help.

I second Skyout's recommendation with his link for someone competent here in the U.S.

I hope something I have posted has helped.

SS

[magboggs]

Hi thanks for getting back if any of you would like to contact me direct at secretary@igkt.net I can send you the email with the link hopefully working better. Margaret

[Dan_Lehman]

Hi chaps - apologies that the first link did not work - please try these -
...

Again, "your session has timed out" is what comes of chasing
these URLinks, as I noted above.  Apparently, you need to give
us a base URL and then the search terms that will get us (in OUR
current *session*) to the desired particular page.

--dl*
====

[dfred]

Due to the issue Dan mentioned above, I'm not sure exactly which swords Jon was referring to above at the wallacecollection.org website.

However I found several examples by doing a search for "sword" and browsing through the results.  Each item's page has a "bookmarkable URL", which I've used below.  Hopefully these will work for others:

Example 1 from the Wallace Collection...
Example 2
Example 3
Example 4

Click on the thumbnail image for a much higher res version.

The decorative knots at the ends of the grips all appear to be three-lead Turk's Heads with 5 (or less likely 4 or 7?) bights.  They appear to be made with multiple passes and/or strands, some of slightly differing properties giving the impression of a ribbon.  The knots themselves should be relatively easy, and appear in many knotting books, but working them in metal and getting them to look as regular as they appear on these swords may take a bit of skill.