invented a new knot

[alanleeknots]

Hi all, I have discovered a new knot.  What should I do about it?  I would like to share it but im afraid someone might steal the idea!

Are there any steps on what you should do if you believe u have a knot nobody else knows about?

Serious replies only,

Thanks,

Eric

[WebAdmin]

Hi Eric,

Welcome to the forum!  You've taken the first step, and that is to consult a very large body of knot expertise.

Knot-tying having been around for so long, it is now fairly rare for a knot to be completely new, although there h ave been some recent instances, such as the Gleipnir.

Our contributors will gladly examine your claim, and compare it to their combined libraries of knot books, to see if anything like it has been described before.  To do this, the following will be of best assistance:

1 - your confirmation of which books you have checked to establish that your knot is not described elsewhere (but this can mean only that it is not in your books; look up the story of Hunter's Bend for a cautionary experience).

2 - a step by step detailed description of how you tied the knot, accompanied by clear photographs on a neutral background with contrasting cord or rope if it needs more than one working length.  Please particularly include clear close-up detail of the knot configuration from several vantage-points: a small tripod is often excellent for keeping the camera steady on a "flower" or close-up setting.  Explanation of the circumstances under which you needed the knot are also very relevant.  The Gleipnir came about because of a specific need, but generated great excitement as experimentation by others revealed its range of uses and limitations.

3 - detailed descriptions of any experimentation, loads or stresses, or other forces (eg, direction of strain, means of failure) which you encountered or which you purposely tested the knot with.

The more clear, logically-presented information you provide at this stage, the better.  Nobody is likely to usurp your claim if it is proven.  However, there are several extremely experienced members of the Forum, who particularly excel in technical discussion, who will be paying close attention to your claim.  Their discussions may seem off-putting at times, but I can assure you that they are simply trying to help you prove the genuineness of your claim.  A new knot is an occasion for celebration.

Finally, you can also submit the knot with the same detail as above to other peers, such as the IGKT's Knotting Matters, our printed magazine which reaches every member, the majority of whom are not in this Forum.  The Editor, Mr Lindsey Philpott is contactable at knottingmatters@igkt.net. He is also a forum member, and will probably see your post.  Other knot forums include KHWW (KnotHeads WorldWide).  I'm sorry that at this early hour I can't think of any others.  You could also try JD's video channel on YouTube (Tying It All Together or TIAT) to see if his extensive knowledgebase has anything like it.  But I don't believe he has a discussion forum, although I know how kind he is in helping other knottyers.

I have moved your post to a more appropriate area of the forum, as we are still in the process of altering the forum boards to create a "new knots investigation" area.

I hope this helps you in your bid to prove your claim,

Regards

Glenys Chew
Webadmin

[alanleeknots]

thank you so much!

I will follow all instructions given.

Once again thanks for the help.

[roo]

Hi all, I have discovered a new knot.  What should I do about it?  I would like to share it but im afraid someone might steal the idea!

Since you can't really sell a knot, I assume you're worried about someone taking credit for your possible discovery.  In that case, the very act of posting detailed diagrams here in public prevents that.  Every post is labeled with the date and time.

[JD~TIAT]

Hi eric22,

First, I would like to congratulate you for the sensation of creating something new! Its a good feeling, but one that (I hope) doesn't impede you from creating new things all the time. As you now know, knots are not a finite field of study and new knots and ties are being created all the time---much like paintings are painted all the time.

This said, feel free to submit your knot to the previous forum(s) mentioned including the Fusion Knot Forum (Link: http://www.fusionknots.com/forum/index.php) It is a forum specifically geared toward new knots and ties. Although I must say, novel creations are everyday there. We make no fanfare about it, we simply share our ideas, and move on to make something new, again.

JD ~ TIAT

p.s. The only way your knot will survive the test of time is to share it with as many people as you can, and hope they take on your design, tie it themselves, and share it with others. As is always the case, it is your choice whether or not to let go. But remember, if you do not, all you create will end with you.

[xarax]

knots are not a finite field of study, and new knots and ties are being created all the time---much like paintings are painted all the time.

   Although this picture is nice, it is not accurate, I believe. If we would like to use a simile, we should better say that knots are like mathematical theorems, or chemical substances or musical themes, that are created all the time. (Not figurative) painting is something less structured than the field of mathematics, or chemistry, or music, or knots. Now, if we are talking about simple knots ( all practical knots should be simple knots, but all simple knots are not practical ), then we should say that the field of simple knots, although it is a vast, it is a finite field of study nevertheless. Regarding practical knots, the mere fact that the discovery of truly new practical knots is so rare nowadays, is an indication that we are probably near the end of the line... and I think that we should have reached this end by now ( in fact, quite a long time ago...) if there were a bigger number of people and a larger amount of recourses dedicated to this poor field.

[Dan_Lehman]

Hi all, I have discovered a new knot.  What should I do about it?
I would like to share it but im afraid someone might steal the idea!

The simplest thing to "do about it" would be to present it here,
verbally --which might be possible with some reference to known
knots-- or graphically.  Granted, one can spend time trying to get
a slew of reference works to check ... , but, frankly, it really is
more efficient just to ask.  (Presumably, if you are keen enough
to be taken by the prospect of knot invention, you've got some
bit of familiarity with knots and have done some checking already.)

As for the fear/hope you show, try to let go of that : we can point
to cases of mistaken origination (best case : IGKT formed upon the
supposed discovery of "Hunter's Bend" which in fact had appeared
in a book a couple decades prior), as well as different namings (so,
where Chet Hedden might favor "Hedden Hitch", some Germans et al.
know it as "Kruezklem", no matter).  And you might be well
pleased with your discovery even if it turns out that others have
the same pleasure, preceding yours (as with what I now thus call
"SmitHunter's bend" , e.g.).  --unless there was suggestion that
you were stealing the idea for self-promotion, and I don't
think that's likely to be the belief!


--dl*
====

[alanleeknots]

Thank you all for the informative replies.  Great site you have JD !

My father and I will be posting the new knot hopefully by the end of the week for you all to take a look at and to analyze.   

Thanks again,

Eric

[knot4u]

As roo mentioned, you won't make any money off your knot invention.  So, what's left is getting credit.

I recommend posting the knot pics/diagrams here and naming the knot with big, bold writing.  You might also put some type of watermark in the pic/diagram.  Then, put a link to the knot in your signature line here and at other forums.

Naming the knot is perhaps more important than the pics/diagrams.  Why?  It's because people want a name, and they will attach a name to your knot if you have not supplied one.  The first name that catches-on will be the name with which the knot lives, whether you like it or not.

Name the knot yourself.  Do not ask others what the name should be.  If you do that, Elvis will have already left the building with another groupie.

Use your real last name or a name that you wanted associated with you (e.g., Gleipnir Binder, Rosenthal Bend, etc.).  It sounds like you want your real identity attached to the knot, right?  I believe Gleipnir posted pics of his binder here first.  As I recall, he didn't provide much description (e.g., not many references if any, not much test results if any).

[Dan_Lehman]

I recommend posting the knot pics/diagrams here and ...

... so he has, in several posts, listed below this one, and with
one in ChitChat giving a URL for YouTube.


 

[xarax]

   A few lines of advice, for any knot tyer that happens to figure out a "new" knot ;
   1. Do not pay attention to anything knot4u says in (1). ( I mean, if you tie a new knot...If you cook a new "beauty cream" for ladies, a "health", "organic" diet soup or something, do exactly what knot4u says !  )
   2. Do not bother naming the knot. Instead, try to present it rightly, with correctly taken pictures or clearly drawn diagrams. The names of knots do not have any relation with their usefulness or beauty, they do not matter at all, and that is a reason we have many knots with many names, without this to interfere with the knots themselves, or with us tying those knots. The knots will be named somehow in due course, by the knotting community or by accident, but this will not change the knots themselves. It is a common grave mistake to focus on the names of the knots more than we should ( that is, as little as we possibly can...), because then people tend to sort the knots by their names more than by their structure, and have them arranged in their memory with this deceiving way...So, the picture  of the knot that remains in our memory is the most important thing, and one should pay attention to this, when he thinks of a knot or when he presents it to the knotting nerds community...
  "People want names", that is true, as they want panem et circenses, or blood and heads in public executions, or video games... Well, let us give them instruments, and knowledge, and some simple, neat, beautiful little knots instead !
   3) The suggestion of knot4u to "put some type of watermark in the pic/diagram.  Then, [to] put a link to the knot in your signature line here and at other forums." made me laugh loudly for quite a while ! Thank you, knot4u !    This suggestion will be much appreciated by the Nobel committee, I suppose, or by the knot detectives of today and the knot  historians of the future ! To say nothing about the sculptor that is going to carve the golden letters of the name of the  inventor on the basis of the knot monument...
   4) Life itself will have already left the building with another groupie anyway, that is certain...Trying to attach a name of a person to something that exists independently of any person, or indeed of any living thing, is a desperate act of fear...Life will leave, sooner or later, without asking our name ! Let us enjoy the few brief moments she stays with us, without trying to prolong our existence with such silly means, as names ! Our real identity is revealed by our actions in relation with other living, human beings, not by our names given to innate things !
   Sorry knot4u. but you were asking for it ! See three results of Eric s and Alan s creativity, that were published, but few people paid any attention to them..I have personally asked the creators for a name as a label, and nothing else ! ,  they had made a very generous proposal to me that revealed they are noble persons indeed, and at the end I took the liberty to name the unnamed knots by myself, so we will not confuse their many variations : Tie the knots, explore them, and enjoy them ! I remember very well you saying that a knot is a play, a game, and we have to play and enjoy this game as much as it deserves. We should be grateful, not disappointed by the fact that we will not " make any money off a knot invention ", as roo should have known very well by now, I believe...   Instead, the fair thing would be to pay for the pleasure a knot s meeting/ disovery offers to us, isn't it that so ? We are privileged to enjoy something beautiful that few people had ever he chance to meet... So, enjoy, it is still for free !

1) http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3709.msg21842#msg21842

[knot4u]

Xarax says don't pay attention to my post. Meanwhile, the OP already did everything I recommended. Great minds think alike. 

[Dan_Lehman]

Xarax says don't pay attention to my post.
Meanwhile, the OP already did everything I recommended before I wrote that post.
Go figure.  [became : "Great minds think alike."]

Which was the point of my Reply --that you were
preaching to the choir.  Which means that Xarax's
dictum can be observed w/o consequence!

 

[WebAdmin]

Gentlemen,

Please let's not take the conversation off the subject of Eric22's knots, and let it degenerate into a dissection of what is the best approach to claiming a new knot.  My own advice has aspects that don't work in every situation.

We are here to discuss knots, and just as there are different personalities investigating whether this is a new knot, so there are different approaches to what is a good way to present the claim.

Watermarking images would be analagous to a writer sending a printed copy of his manuscript to himself, with sign-on-delivery postage, and never opening the package, so that it can be proven in court that when the package is opened, the postmark matches the printdate on the manuscript.  I am aware that a good deal of detail is given about when and how an image is formed, and what camera is used, in the background information to an image.  As for names, it doesn't matter whether it's a whatnot or a Lissajous knot or a Jack Ketch knot: everyone who tries it is going to think of it with some name or other, so the potential inventor may as well tell us all what he thinks it should be called until someone else can prove it already had a name.

Let's save the debate for the important matter of what uses and limitations the new knot(s) have.  Surely that should be the new area of exploration?

Regards
Glenys Chew

[xarax]

Xarax says don't pay attention to my post.

   I was just kidding...and I am really sorry if I gave the not-intended impression that your post should not be considered carefully by the Lee s. I would just like the relation of the knot tyers to their knots, to be similar to the relation of the mathematicians to their mathematical theorems. In a sense, I believe that knots are already in the Knot Land, "waiting" for us to meet/discover them . So, in fact we do not invent knots, as we do not invent mathematical theorems. If that is the case, I see no point, ( and, indeed, I see no right ) for a knot-discoverer to have any proprietary claims on a knot that he might have discovered first, but was already there nevertheless. Sort of a belief in a Platonic realm of knots, similar to the Platonic realm of ideas... I believe that knots belong to humanity as a whole, and the satisfaction of the knot tyer by its mere existence of "his" knot, the joy of the understanding of its working, is more than enough to compensate his efforts to discover it.