Author Topic: Are knots tied on nylon, stronger than knots tied on other materials...  (Read 11994 times)

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Are knots tied on nylon, stronger than knots tied on other materials...
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2012, 03:13:18 AM »
There's been some discussion about "strongest" versus "most practical".

Please *NB* that there is also the point that "strength"
is usually left undefined, and presumed to be measurable
by a standard test device --as opposed to, say, quantities
of loading at forces that wouldn't be expected to break the
rope.

Quote
Where I have had problems is with rope slipping out of knots. I fell out of a tree once, due to this type of failure. It was a Carrick bend, that the rope slipped out of - I was surprised, having thought that the knot's over-and-under weaves would provide enough friction to keep that from happening.

THIS statement of a "weave" suggests that that is
how you left the knot!?  For, the usual completion
will transform the lattice form (my term for the usual
orientation for tying it) into a knot not all so different
from others, and so not likely to be so described.
If so, I think that we can appreciate how such an
unfinished structure might have failed (tails too short,
capsizing done unequally).  Because, otherwise,
a carrick bend shouldn't fail.  Hmmm, unless
it's tied in the (referring to the lattice state)
ends-on-same-side version --that has been cited
as potentially (YMMV w/rope) insecure version!

Quote
This is why granny knots (and square knots, too, under some circumstances) are said to be so bad - they're easy to capsize, and once capsized, they slide right apart.

No, granny knots shouldn't capsize --they've
a fair chance to jam and hold, depending how well
set they are (Ashley remarks about this chance).
As for the square knot capsizing, well, that is
a given method for untying one.  Frankly, I'm not all
so sure that this is a probable event, especially if
the knot's been heavily loaded.  (Ashley made an
oft'-quoted assertion about this vulnerability, too,
but somehow that didn't discourage the knot being
kept in regularly published sailors' knots sets,
and even required ... .)   Fortunately, there are
many other end-2-end knots to choose from,
though none so brief & trim.


--dl*
====
« Last Edit: March 15, 2012, 05:49:21 PM by Dan_Lehman »

DerekSmith

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Re: Are knots tied on nylon, stronger than knots tied on other materials...
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2012, 09:07:48 AM »


 Because, otherwise,
a carrick bend shouldn't fail.  Hmmm, unless
it's tied in the (referring to the lattice state)
ends-on-same-side version --that has been cited
as potentially (YMMV w/rope) insecure version!


--dlk*

====


Hi Dan,

I am interested in the reported insecurity of the 'ends-on-same-side version' of the Carrick.

Do you have any links to these claims or any personal experience of the effect?

I would be interested to hear your views as to how such reported insecurity might be effected.

Thanks,

Derek

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Are knots tied on nylon, stronger than knots tied on other materials...
« Reply #17 on: March 15, 2012, 06:02:10 PM »
Because, otherwise,
a carrick bend shouldn't fail.  Hmmm, unless
it's tied in the (referring to the lattice state)
ends-on-same-side version --that has been cited
as potentially (YMMV w/rope) insecure version!
--dl*
====

Hi Dan,
I am interested in the reported insecurity of the 'ends-on-same-side version' of the Carrick.
Do you have any links to these claims or any personal experience of the effect?
I would be interested to hear your views as to how such reported insecurity might be effected.

Heinz Prohaska noted this vulnerability in an article
in Knotting Matters some time ago (and as time flies,
that could be a decade (plus! (egadz))).  I suggest that
the vulnerability increases with cordage having a firm
cross section, some stiffness/resistance to bending,
and slickness : the tails in the opposite-sides version
are nipped directly by the SParts; in the same-sides
version, then fall away from this nip, less surely held
in the opposition of the collar bight and the SPart.
With slickness in the material and some resistance
to closing, one might get movement of the material
before it can be locked.  (I don't know if there will
be slippage under load, but HMPE cordage might
put the lesser nip of collar-vs-SPart to the test --heck,
if it can pull through a bowline's nip, one would
expect so!  (more on this, to come, elsewhere)


Btw, looking to better secure these two carrick bends'
tails by tucking them out through the U-turning SParts
one is led to some of the interlocked-overhands bends.
(... to Shakehands and #1452 IIRC, w/o fiddling)


--dl*
====

 

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