Italian fire department tutorial:a knot to tow vehicles

[Luca]

Hello, sorry for my ugly and poor and partially Google translated english.
I don't have a car, but equally i was curious to search for some knots useful to towing a vehicle.
I'm italian,and searching with Google using my language,i found this document,
which is a part of a series of tutorials of fire department of the italian ministry of the Interior:

 https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:3mUZ-3n-CBYJ:www.vvfnapoli.it/document/DISPENSE/Dispensa%2520Funi%2520Nodi.pdf+nodo+da+traino&hl=it&gl=it&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESjoGxZD_HZQinECP1ho62mESDUlSFaoSfcSOZp17CKFA30-IgWT4F_uBb6EMHudWWafSvwySIpZfsJNXybWS_SBTn7QXNsjqtiN9CccXNI1wYYw0rSybXrmdQH67oAKfsVOfjj0&sig=AHIEtbRRu90S_V3EFOJVRoXopgjBg-H4Vw

on page 71 there is a loop called"Nodo da Traino Semplice"(Knot for Tow Simple).
At first it seemed to me a Carrick Loop,but it is not:is a loop version of ABOK #1443,
a bend marked dangerous with skull and bones symbol in the Ashley Book of Knots.
At first I thought a crass error in tying illustration,but after i found this page at the italian fire department site:

http://www.vigilfuoco.it/aspx/Page.aspx?IdPage=4136&index=1&IdImg=4519

is the same knot(a mirror version of the former).
The old style drawing of this second picture suggests to me that this knot has been used for decades and more
(and probably not only by italian fire department).
Assuming however that fire departments today normally use other tools for towing a vehicle,
like rigid bars or steel cables,i believe,and assuming that anyhow fire departments know what they do,
I ask you members of this forum an estimation in respect of the use of this knot.
Maybe being not a bend but a loop, when it is under strain the forces acting in a manner that the knot will not slip?
(anyhow shaking and tearing the loop and the standing part with the only strength of my arms the knot sometimes is slipped)
A stopper/backup knot solves many problems,but it would be better to use a true Full Carrick Loop,
or some better loop or hitch for this purpose?
Can happen that someone is in trouble using this knot without a stopper/backup knot after viewing these files?
On page 55 the title of the section on knots of fire department tutorial says"nodi con corde in canapa"(knots with hemp ropes),
maybe this loop results more"secure" tied in a old twisted strands hemp rope? This type of rope is still used  by fire departments?

 
Thanks you all for your possible attention about these questions


                                                   Regards to you all
                                                                       
                                                                        Luca

P.S.
Sorry,but actually i'm on a O.S. called "Puppy Linux" because of problems with my graphics card and I can' t post active links as i did when I used windows
                                                                       

                                                                       
                                                                       
                                                                         

[Luca]

the links are active, I did not think ...

[SS369]

Hello Luca and welcome.

I don't read Italian and do not know what the text says, but I can think of better knot(s) to use for towing. Depending on what you have for tie points will determine what is best practice concerning the knot(s) employed. Hopefully you will use a suitable rope with breaking strength that exceeds your use (including the weak point - the knot).

A sling would be my choice arrangement if there is sufficient rope and suitable places to attach it.

I am attaching the page you referenced for others to see.

SS

[TMCD]

I've pulled out several Ford F250 work vans out of some deep and muddy ruts using a slipped Buntline Hitch on both ends. I had to bend two ropes together using the Zeppelin Bend in these two cases. The first time I towed one of my work trucks I made the mistake of tying a regular Buntline Hitch and I learned right then and there that the slipped version is a must in a towing scenario.

The loop in your link looks way to complicated for the task at hand. I can't imagine a fireman or other rescue person trying to work their way through that knot. Keep it simple by tying a bowline or double bowline IMO. Simple knots such as the bowline are perfect for towing a car IMO.

[knot4u]

I've pulled out several Ford F250 work vans out of some deep and muddy ruts using a slipped Buntline Hitch on both ends. I had to bend two ropes together using the Zeppelin Bend in these two cases. The first time I towed one of my work trucks I made the mistake of tying a regular Buntline Hitch and I learned right then and there that the slipped version is a must in a towing scenario.

Were your Slipped Buntlines difficult to untie? According to one user on this site, jamming is a possibility even if a Buntline is slipped. I have never jammed a Slipped Buntline, but apparently it can happen.

Would you consider using a Round Turn and Two Half Hitches, or a Girth Hitch secured by using a Bowline, or just a straight Bowline? These knots don't require a slip and are highly unlikely to jam.

[Luca]

Hello SS369,and thanks for your replay

Yet yesterday I read it with pleasure,but at that moment I not had time to replicate.
Unfortunately, regarding the use of the sling I do not fully understand(i believe because indeed I did not practice  of these situations),
but in any case this is not important for me.
I want to thank you too TMCD and knot4u for your suggestions,but in reality the core of my curiosity is maybe another question,
i am interested more than anything  to know the opinion of you experts of this very attractive forum in regard of the reason why it is proposed
this loop by the authors of this tutorial:
in the page that you gently have posted ,the text above does not specify the support to which the loop is anchored,
only i understand that is anchored at the center of front or back of the vehicle,in contrast with the knot on page 72,
which is used for attaching at two points furthest from the center.
The basis of this knot is a regular Bowline,which provides a decent security;the tying of former knot begins like a bowline,
but is finished in another manner,which in my opinion is weaker.
This reminds me, a little ,the same situation between a Reef and a Granny Knot:same beginning in tying ,but the one is good ,the other is weak.
In conclusion ,i could be curious for this:assumed that none of us would use tihs loop for tow,
why,in your opinions, for the one knot is proposed a Bowline and for the other is proposed another weaker loop?

                                                       I sincerely hope that reading my poor English will not cause too much inconvenience ...

Again I thank you SS369,and TMCD,and knot4,and salute you all of the Forum

[[Inkanyezi] gone]

Hi Luca and welcome,

I am really puzzled by the inclusions in the knot book. The knot you point out is in my opinion not as good as a bowline, and there is also a possibility that it would jam, which has been addressed in the instruction, by suggesting to introduce a conical piece of wood in the knot to be driven out with a hammer when it is to be untied. There is no hint of exactly where to put that piece of wood, and to my knowledge, such pieces of wood (round conical) are not standard equipment in the fire corps. It is akin to the rigger's implement a "fid", although it is maybe properly called a "toggle" when used like this.

(Io capisco italiano.) Reading through the document, I find the Eskimo Bowline Dutch Bowline at page 59, a knot that has almost the same tying pattern, but is easier to remember and a far better knot for these purposes. The Eskimo Dutch Bowline is said to be utilised for any type of anchoring, which is indeed the same purpose as the knot at page 71. I cannot understand why one would need to memorise two almost identically tied knots, where one would need a fid inserted in order to untie it easily, while the other does not need such an implement. In my opinion, the Eskimo Bowline is a better knot, and in the book it is shown in one of the applications where it is superior, when tying around a large object, as it won't capsize by ring loading. One of the virtues mentioned is that it may be used for tying around a point that you cannot reach, by throwing the line around the anchorage point, which actually is not different from many other single loop knots, including the one at page 71 and the usual bowline, which does not work quite as well with ring loading.

I would have excluded the knot that you point out.

Post edit: As pointed out by Luca, I made a mistake here. The knot referred to at page 59 is not the Eskimo bowline, but a Dutch/Cowboy Bowline. Sorry folks.

[Luca]

Ciao  Inkanyezi e grazie!
 i know the Eskimo Bowline, is a reversed version of the Bowline, but pointing at page 59 in the document posted by me,i found a Fisherman/Englishman Knot.
I want to better respond to your reply tomorrow if you excuse me ,because unfortunately is time to me to go to sleep,
excuse me and stai bene!

[[Inkanyezi] gone]

I don't actually speak Italian, but my second language, after Swedish, is Spanish, which is rather similar.

I referred to the pagination. The page with the Eskimo Bowline (post edit: Dutch Bowline) has "59" in the lower right corner, but I see that it is the 69:th page in the PDF.
The header is:
7.4.4 Fibbia Semplice Fissa o Gassa d'Amante
(Simple Fixed Loop or Lover's Loop)

Caratteristiche Caracteristics	E' un nodo che si scioglie facilmente, ha il pregio di non essere scorsoio e di non stringersi troppo anche quando la cima e bagnata It is a knot that is easily untied, has the virtue of not slipping and not drawing up too tightly even when wet
Utilizzo Utilisation	Per ogni tipo ancoraggio For any type of anchorage
Difficolta di Esecuzione Difficulty of tying	media medium
Note	E' uno dei nodi piu utilizzato dai vigili del fuoco. Uno dei pregi di questo nodo, e la possibilita di assicurare una fune ad un punto di attaco non a portata di mano (lanciando la fune) It is one of the most used knots in the fire corps. A valuable feature of this knot is the possibility to secure a line to an attachment point that cannot be reached  (by throwing the line)

(The forum does not accept diacritics.)

And I really like Puppy Linux, it runs fast even on an old 386 with no more than 128 MB of memory. Moreover it seems to use just any piece of hardware. On my home computer I run Ubuntu, but when away and using someone else's box, I have Puppy on a stick and start my own system from USB without touching the host machine's disks.

[TMCD]

I've pulled out several Ford F250 work vans out of some deep and muddy ruts using a slipped Buntline Hitch on both ends. I had to bend two ropes together using the Zeppelin Bend in these two cases. The first time I towed one of my work trucks I made the mistake of tying a regular Buntline Hitch and I learned right then and there that the slipped version is a must in a towing scenario.

Were your Slipped Buntlines difficult to untie? According to one user on this site, jamming is a possibility even if a Buntline is slipped. I have never jammed a Slipped Buntline, but apparently it can happen.

Would you consider using a Round Turn and Two Half Hitches, or a Girth Hitch secured by using a Bowline, or just a straight Bowline? These knots don't require a slip and are highly unlikely to jam.

No they weren't hard to untie but I'm a big man at 6-5 285lbs. I just gave them a hard yank and they came free on the second yank I believe it was. Now the only way to get the regular Buntline untied was with a screwdriver...I don't have a fid.

I wouldn't be afraid to use a round turn and two half hitches either or for that matter a bowline with a fairly long working end. A regular bowline has probably proven itself more than any knot in history, but most folks only talk about beefing it up because they're worried about it slipping. I've seen so many fancy bowlines on the internet and it's kind of funny to me because I'd say a double bowline with a double overhand stopper is about as safe as it gets...yet we see these exotic bowlines. 

[Luca]

Hello again Inkanyezi!

Quote from: Inkanyezi on May 13, 2012, 08:31:00 PM
and there is also a possibility that it would jam, which has been addressed in the instruction, by suggesting to introduce a conical piece of wood in the knot to be driven out with a hammer when it is to be untied. There is no hint of exactly where to put that piece of wood, and to my knowledge, such pieces of wood (round conical) are not standard equipment in the fire corps. It is akin to the rigger's implement a "fid", although it is maybe properly called a "toggle" when used like this.



I too have read the notes you quote,but i had not given their importance,perhaps because they imply that this  conical piece of wood is often used, but not always.
Also they points at the utlity of this tool in respect of the ease in untying the knot after work,not its safety.
But your quote regarding  this respect of knot's usage inspired me to explore.
And perhaps i understand  that a part of the answer to my questions was already in front of my eyes:
in my little worn rope usually i break this knot by pulling with my hands on the standing part and on the part of loop which corresponds
to other pull in the bend version(ABOK #1443),but if before i put a pen in the central hole of the loose knot,i can't do more.
And if i do the same in the corresponding hole of a loose
Bowline,i break the knot.
using the tool it seems that the two knots  interchange their properties!
Although I have not the means to test the security acquired by the knot used with this tool inserted, at least now i can imagine that someone who decides,providing a great strain work,and consequent difficulties in untying,to use this knot, which provides the advantage of this tool,instead of a Bowline  can not do.


Please,excuse  me for the mistake of document's page,effectively i referred to my pdf copy,
but the knot to which you really  refer resembles  to me a Dutch/Cowboy Bowline.
In my person for towing a car i would tend to prefer the use of a hitch,instead of a loop,because i think it better to preserve the health
of rope,I think I would opt for an Anchor Hitch(/Bend)

Puppy is good, saved me,long live Barry Kauler!

                                                                 You are well!

                                                                                                  Thanks again and regards

[[Inkanyezi] gone]

the knot to which you really  refer resembles  to me a Dutch/Cowboy Bowline.

Sorry, my bad, a real brain fart, dunno what I was thinking of but I didn't smoke anything...

i have no excuse, but I made a mistake, and of course you are right. It is the Dutch/Cowboy bowline.

Nevertheless, it is in my opinion a better knot than the "simple" one for towing, and maybe the Eskimo variant would be better, although not quite as easily opened.

[knot4u]

If I'm doing something like towing or holding somebody's body weight, I'm going to go with a reliable, boring knot that I tie and test a lot. The knot in the original doesn't fall into that category for me or for anybody who has written on this thread. So, it would be a no-go for me. For towing and other critical activities, it's not the time to figure out, "Darn, that's not such a good knot after all."

[Dan_Lehman]

I ask you members of this forum an estimation in respect of the use of this knot.
Maybe being not a bend but a loop, when it is under strain the forces acting in a manner that the knot will not slip?             

Thanks to SS369 for capturing the relevant page into easy
viewing --when I looked at the 2nd reference, the illustration
wasn't so clear to me and I was mis-led into some abomination.

Now, there is too much forgetfulness in this forum:  we
discussed this knot not so long ago!  (See below.)

Luca, this is a great eyeknot for heavy loads; it should be
tied with the reeving of the tail left rather loose (as I opine
in the quoted post to the earlier thread, below).  The knot
resists jamming & capsizing better than the bowline
of which it can be seen as a variation.  As you have noted,
the loading of an eyeknot differs from that of an end-2-end
knot (end-A1 vs. end-A2+end-B1 || end-A1 vs. end-B1);
the behavior will also differ.

Can you translate what the document says for this knot?
Why do they present it?

ref. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3862.msg22929#msg22929

Yes - I see ABoK #1033 carrick loop is virtually identical to my originally presented knot,
and I understand your comment about the superior exit point of the tail.

So, for the sake of clarity (my own and anyone else following the post),
I hope a few more pics are useful:


ABoK #1033

NB: This form is what I would use (more likely), and is
what I regard as being in the bowline family --not the
"tightened" version you show after this.

I think I understand your suggestion for improving #1033 with a double turn
of the standing-part as well, which I assume gives you this:

Not so; my
"And for the bowlinesque dressing of this knot being *doubled*,"
is referring to the un"tightened" form, not the "tightened" one.
(Though perhaps there are also reasons, at times, to prefer
the other, as well.)

--dl*
====

--dl*
===

ps:  Touche' re the slipped buntline comments.
I still fear that the binding of such a knot will overcome
the supposed slipped benefits.  What sort of rope were
you using, TMCD (size, construction, condition)?

[[Inkanyezi] gone]

Here's the actual page extracted.

Characteristics	It is a knot that draws up well, but is easily untied
Utilisation	Recommended for towing of vehicles
Difficulty of tying	medium-difficult
Notes	To avoid that the knot draws up too hard, making untying more difficult, before the knot draws up, a conical piece of wood is inserted into the knot, which in the phase of untying is expelled with a hammer