Author Topic: What wall and crown mean?  (Read 2233 times)

vladimir3722

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What wall and crown mean?
« on: December 09, 2012, 05:04:45 PM »
Hello all!

It is interesting for me (russian-speaking) to know meaning of the names of these well-known knots.

To which meaning wall knot is related to:
1. side support for buildings
2. barricade
3. partition

or anything else?

Crown knot:
1. a circular ornamental headdress worn by a monarch as a symbol of authority, usually made of or decorated with precious metals and jewels
2. the top or highest part of something
3. an ornament, emblem, or badge shaped like a crown
4. the part of a plant just above and below the ground from which the roots and shoots branch out
5. an artificial replacement or covering for the upper part of a tooth
6. a foreign coin with a name meaning 'crown,'
7. cross (in russian books chinese cross (symbol X) found )

Vladimir

Mrs Glenys Chew

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Re: What wall and crown mean?
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2012, 07:00:17 AM »
Now you're asking some very difficult questions :D


There may be others here who do know the origins of the names of knots, and many new knots have been documented so that we can know why they have the names they do, but the names of older knots may forever be a mystery.  Who was Matthew Walker?  Why is a Thranny called a Thranny?  Why do the names Cow hitch, Lark's head, Lark's foot, Girth hitch, Ring hitch, Lanyard hitch, Bale Sling hitch, Baggage Tag Loop, Tag Knot, Deadeye hitch, and Running Eye all describe the same knot (according to Wikipedia)?


And although I have not heard of Wall or Crown having other names, some knots have so many names or ancient origins it is highly confusing.  A Reef Knot was called that because it was used on the reef points of a sail to perform the act of reefing, I do know that.


But I don't know the origin of Wall or Crown.  Looking at your list of definitions, I might guess that the "plant part" is descriptive of a Crown.  But did it originate as a sailor's knot, and therefore the "top or highest part" might be the reason?  Does the rhyme help?  "In a Wall the strands stand tall, in a Crown the strands hang down".  Some other knots are combinations of a layer of Wall and a layer of Crown, and choosing names with an easy rhyme would help you keep track of how to make them.

How do their names translate in/from Russian?

Sweeney: I haven't read the IGKT booklets about knotting by Geoffrey Budworth: "Knotlore" and "Knot Rhymes and Reasons" - would they have an answer to Vladimir's question?


 :) Glenys
« Last Edit: December 10, 2012, 07:03:42 AM by Mrs Glenys Chew »
Mrs Glenys Chew
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Sweeney

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Re: What wall and crown mean?
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2012, 11:46:13 AM »
Sweeney: I haven't read the IGKT booklets about knotting by Geoffrey Budworth: "Knotlore" and "Knot Rhymes and Reasons" - would they have an answer to Vladimir's question?

A quick look through Geoffrey's books and Ashley revealed mention of the Wall Knot which was known as the Wale Knot in the 17th century. A wale was a plank used to reinforce the sides of a ship and also a reinforcing rim around a basket - when tied the Wall Knot has a hollow centre, more so than a crown knot.

No mention of the origin of the Crown Knot but I would surmise it relates to a royal headpiece possibly as when tied it does resemble such a thing - not crown sinnet, just a single crown knot tied at the end of a rope rather than from separate cords which is how it would have been tied way back. This is especially true if the knot is loosened a little with the bights in the centre standing slightly up from the main rope. That's a best guess though.

Barry

vladimir3722

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Re: What wall and crown mean?
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2012, 01:54:26 PM »

How do their names translate in/from Russian?


I only found Crown knot. It is named "Chinese cross" in russian books and macrame sites. As for Wall knot i didn't find anything, no pictures, no decriptions. May be anyone who knows russian here will help?
Vladimir

WebAdmin

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Re: What wall and crown mean?
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2012, 03:48:13 PM »
Hi Vladimir,

These links are not maybe going to shed much light on the present question, but they may be of interest.  They're sections of a Russian Knot Board taken from Knotting Matters Issues 2 and 3.  They're all in png format, because I understand that can enlarge more smoothly than jpg.  If you have trouble with them, let me know and I'll convert and repost them.  Unfortunately, my first attempt to post them looked good on the Forum, but I hadn't saved them properly on Flickr, and now I've saved them on Flickr, I can't get them to display in the Forum.  Sorry.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/11285160@N04/8261502244/in/set-72157630833040230/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/11285160@N04/8261502244/in/set-72157630833040230/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/11285160@N04/8260432501/in/set-72157630833040230/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/11285160@N04/8261501354/in/set-72157630833040230/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/11285160@N04/8260431717/in/set-72157630833040230/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/11285160@N04/8260431603/in/set-72157630833040230/

The translations were done by Dr Harry Asher, who commented in KM3: "Dr. Harry ASHER writes: - I am clueless on anything maritime, but I have done an enormous amount of translation of scientific Russian, so perhaps the following notes may be of interest. The figures refer to the knot numbers."

:) Glenys




Lesley
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vladimir3722

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Re: What wall and crown mean?
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2012, 10:01:36 AM »
Thank you, Glenys, for information.
Vladimir