Author Topic: Netting needles from Asia ???  (Read 9987 times)

Yuval

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Netting needles from Asia ???
« on: May 27, 2013, 07:12:37 PM »
Hi everybody,

a week ago I bought these old netting needles at a fleamarket in Belgium (Maaseik). Unfortunately the seller got them from a man who was dealing with all kind of nautical equipment, so he couldn't tell me anything about their origin.
In my opinion they could be from Asia; here in Europe (I think) are only the other kind of netting needles used - these ones with the tongue. But I know that they use them in India, but made from plastic.

So, is there anybody who has seen such netting needles and maybe could tell me where they come from?

Thank you very much
Yuval :-)

asemery

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Re: Netting needles from Asia ???
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2013, 11:33:02 PM »
Yuval,
  Netting needles come in all shapes and sizes and made from wood, bone, bamboo, metal and plastic to name a few materials.
http://pineapple.myfunforum.org/forum105.php
I have seen needles looking like yours used to make finer mesh netting.  I use the top iron needle below to make netting for minnow traps.

A google image search came up with this that includes some that look like yours.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1182&bih=512&q=netting+needles&oq=netting+needles&gs_l=img.12..0i24l2.4756.9857.0.11929.15.9.0.4.4.0.1401.1662.0j2j7-1.3.0...0.0...1ac.1.14.img.QsFtqvbcjYY    Cheers, Tony

struktor

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Re: Netting needles from Asia ???
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2013, 06:12:07 AM »
« Last Edit: May 28, 2013, 06:13:17 AM by struktor »

X1

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Re: Netting needles from Asia ???
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2013, 04:44:42 PM »
Netting
http://encyclopediaofneedlework.com/chapter_12.html

   I do not understand what the netting needle is needed for, in the first place !  :) I mean, with the netting needle, one makes overhand ( or more complex, topologically) knots, by passing the needle through one or more bights. However, we can easily imagine that one can tie tiable-in-the-bight (TIB) knots ( topologically equivalent to the unknot), where this go-through movement of the needle is not required at all.
   As I see the succession of hand and needle moves, I notice that, at one stage, we have a bight and a free end coming from the already knitted / weaved part of the net. So, just because all nets are weaved following a (repetitive) pattern, we will reach this same stage again, in the next cycle of moves. One bight and one free end, then a knot, and then another bight and another free end, and so on. We do not need any non-TIB knot for this ! Any of the dozens of double TIB / midline loops we have, on Ashley or elsewhere (1), can serve this purpose. We can chose one with more or less communicating bights, that needs not concern us here. The important thing is that we can weave a net, without using non-TIB knots, that is, without the need of any netting needle.
   See the attached pictures from the quoted text, and a picture of a simple TIB double loop which does the job : given one bight and one free end, we get a second bight and a second free end at a next stage, without tying any non-TIB knot, i.e, without having to pass the needle through any opening.
   Am I missing here something elementary ?  Will I be able to repair nets, or do I have to practice hunting instead ?  :)   
   I am sure that there are such nets weaved without a netting needle, constructed by the help of TIB knots, and Struktor can find out relevant references and pictures.
 
   1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3783.0   
« Last Edit: May 30, 2013, 05:29:51 PM by X1 »

Yuval

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Re: Netting needles from Asia ???
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2013, 01:46:55 PM »
Hi,

thank you all very much for your answers, which are very interesting, but my original question was if anyone could tell me something about the country of origin of the two netting needles shown in the picture above.
Maybe it is useful to know that one is made from copper and seems to be hand-made, and the other one is made out of steel, and it is not obvious wheter this one is handmade also.

All the best and happy knotting
Yuval

asemery

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Re: Netting needles from Asia ???
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2013, 10:30:59 PM »
Yuval,
  One place you might look for the origin of your needles is here   http://www.lacis.com/ as i believe that your needles are designed for making finer mesh nets.  They have needles similar to yours and books such as "Netting, from Early Sources".  They have a contact link so you can pose your question to an expert in the field.

X1,
I use a needle in my netmaking because it is a convenient way to carry the cord I am using when I make a net.  When I make a net I generally use the sheet bend which locks each mesh into place.  (the TIB knot you show in your last example would slide back and forth on mesh it is tied into).  A net with meshes that slide would not be suitable for most uses that a net is designed for. 
Although it might be possible to make a net using the example you give It would be a time consuming process.  You would never be able to achieve the speed made by this met maker.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ensL0Mwboew&feature=player_embedded
I will continue to use the method that has been around for thousands of years.  If you can show me how the TIB method method would be an advantage to me I will be happy to use it.  Tony

X1

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Re: Netting needles from Asia ???
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2013, 08:25:58 PM »
... use the method that has been around for thousands of years.

   Knots are very simple rope-made mechanisms, but mechanisms nevertheless, and, as history has taught us time and again, mechanisms can be improved - especially when the materials they are made of have been improved. Contemporary ropes and cords are very different than the ropes and cords ropes that have been used for "thousands of years", so, why should contemporary knots tied on quite different materials remain the same ? I do not believe that all the possible simple knots have been tied and tried already - we had the Zeppelin bend, just a few decades ago, and the Gleinpir knot, just a few years ago, to remind us this... Also, I have seen that, although nowadays the materials used by fishermen in different parts of the world are almost identical, the fishing knots tied on them are not.

  When I make a net I generally use the sheet bend which locks each mesh into place.  (the TIB knot you show in your last example would slide back and forth on mesh it is tied into).  A net with meshes that slide would not be suitable for most uses that a net is designed for. 
  The most simple TIB double loop was offered as an example only - there are many other TIB loops with non-communicating eye legs that will not slide more than a similar non-TIB bend, in general, and the Sheet bend, in particular, and that can serve to weave a net where the netting needle will not have to penetrate one or more already formed bights.

   I use a needle in my netmaking because it is a convenient way to carry the cord I am using when I make a net. 

   You do not have to "carry" the cord you are using along the net - it can lie there, on the floor, right from the start to the end of the weaving, just as the threads used in knitting, for example. (See the attached pictures). You only have to unwind and "consume" the cord from a bobbin, but the two ends of it can remain out of reach, until the very last "closing" knot. Of course, the knots at the mesh s should be tighter than simple round turns, but we have tight TIB knots  that will clinch on the previous row s bight as tightly as we wish.
   I have never used a net or repaired a net, and, frankly, I do not like this highly non-selective method of fishing ( that reduces the biodiversity of the oceans - to say nothing about the collateral damage to non-edible creatures it is responsible of). I just see a knotted 2D structure, and I ask myself, why those knots should be non-TIB, and not "close" only at the beginning and at the end of it ? It was an academic question, I had no intention to suggest a better mousetrap here !  :) On the issue of speed, I can not comment, because I can not say if another method - which I do not know, for the time being, but whose possibility I can not deny in advance - would not be even speedier than the "traditional" one that is forced to use a netting needle. Also, I do not know how the industry-made nets are weaved - I do not know if they use the same knots and weaving technique as those shown in the pictures of the article, or not.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2013, 08:33:11 PM by X1 »

asemery

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Re: Netting needles from Asia ???
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2013, 11:53:50 PM »
X1,
   I became involved in netmaking almost 40 years ago when a local historical group http://www.goschenhoppen.org/ needed someone to demonstrate the craft that was practiced in this Pennsylvania German area where I live.  I was fortunate to meet a local gentleman then in his 90's who had learned the craft as a boy.  He taught me his family's techniques and patterns.  I studied museum pieces and documents to complete my display of fishing nets.  I do NOT use these nets as I am not a fisherman and the nets have been banned for the ecological damage they caused. 
   Making nets by hand using the traditional methods is still very useful.  I have made and continue to make  shopping bags, garden as well as storage hammocks, nets to hold garden produce to name just a few. 
   I would love to discover any method that would expand my knowledge of the craft.  Most of my netting uses a gauge that is 3/4" wide or wider.  The knitting method example you give would be not be practical as it would unravel if a mesh were to be cut.
  Many machine nets are knotted as shown in this video  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVr1jVODAw0
   If this would be able to be done on a scale suitable to hand netting I would love to try it.  Any suggestions would be welcome.  Tony

X1

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Re: Netting needles from Asia ???
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2013, 12:19:48 PM »
   Thank you asemery / Tony,

   So, this net-making loom reproduces the knots and the tying method described in the pictures of the article, only in a multi-thread, parallel and much faster way. However, this does not prove that this is the ONLY way a net can be made, does it ? It is natural to believe that a thing is always like the thing you use to see every day, until you see another, very different one : the black swan... :) If you go beyond the circle, every other curved path can be traced with many ways !  :) { Until yesterday, I thought I knew how a car can make a tight "Pendalum" turn (1)(2), and the curved path it was going to follow on a hairpin turn, but Jari-Matti Latvala drove his WRC car in front of my eyes in such a fast, efficient and seemingly "easy" way, that made me realize I know NOTHING !  :) } The Sheet bend is probably the simplest knot that can be used at the crossing points of a net, but it is in not the only one, and I doubt that it is the strongest one either.
   To tie a secure net knot that would not "unravel if a mesh were to be cut", as you say, one has first to specify the material he is going to use. On slippery materials, the required knots would have to be more complex. We have dozens of bends and hitches that can serve such a purpose, and many of them would not require a netting needle going through one or more bights to be tied. I guess the only shortcoming we have to be cautious of is the bulk, the volume of the knot. However, if the net is not going to be used as a fishing net, a bulkier knot would not be a problem, and it may even add a decorative value to the finished 2D rope-made grid.

   the nets have been banned for the ecological damage they caused. 

   Unfortunately, not at all, and certainly not yet - and I doubt they will ever be...
   
   A relevant discussion has taken place at (3).
   
1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavian_flick
2. http://soliton.ae.gatech.edu/people/ptsiotra/Papers/ecc07a.pdf
3. http://www.craftbanter.com/showthread.php?t=13438
« Last Edit: June 03, 2013, 12:20:57 PM by X1 »

asemery

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Re: Netting needles from Asia ???
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2013, 02:07:26 PM »

X1,
   In a machine made net such as the volleyball net you need a separate spool of cord for each weft and warp of the finished net.  This leaves a jagged appearance at each knot around the edge of the net that has to be covered as shown at minute 4:05  to end of clip.
   A hand made net does not have this problem as the finished edge is built in.

Thank you for the links.  It is nice to know about the pendulum turn but I doubt that I will ever be tempted to try it.  The "Craftbanter" site is very interesting.  Unfortunately the link just leads to the tantalizing "new net knot" headline with no text.  I will explore the site later.  Tony

Yuval

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Re: Netting needles from Asia ???
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2013, 02:52:15 PM »
Yuval,
  One place you might look for the origin of your needles is here   http://www.lacis.com/ as i believe that your needles are designed for making finer mesh nets.  They have needles similar to yours and books such as "Netting, from Early Sources".  They have a contact link so you can pose your question to an expert in the field.

Dear Tony,

thank you very much for your answer. I've send them an e-mail and now I'm waiting for the answer.....

Yuval
« Last Edit: June 03, 2013, 03:19:16 PM by Yuval »

X1

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Re: Netting needles from Asia ???
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2013, 03:22:37 PM »
   A link with some relevant material :
   http://www.troop54.com/knots/Netting.htm
  ( I am pretty sure that many other simple knots and tying methods can produce secure nets, if there is no restrictions imposed on/by the size of the net knots. )

asemery

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« Last Edit: June 08, 2013, 09:29:45 PM by asemery »

struktor

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Re: Netting needles from Asia ???
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2013, 08:56:11 PM »
http://oxalid.arch.ox.ac.uk/

''Lead isotope analysis is at present the most successful method of establishing
the geographical origin of lead present in ancient metals and other materials,
for which minerals containing lead were used in their manufacture, for example:
pigments, glass, glaze and paint.  ''


https://doc.rero.ch/record/12986/files/serneels_lia.pdf

 

anything