A simple TIB locked bowline

[alpineer]

    So, we have a known practical knot, and a not-so-practical TIB method to tie it - and a thread that describes those two things...Where should we put it ?

Seems like an exploration to me.
Anybody concur?

SS

I would concur.

[Luca]

Hi SS and xarax,

    So, we have a known practical knot, and a not-so-practical TIB method to tie it - and a thread that describes those two things...Where should we put it ?

Seems like an exploration to me.
Anybody concur?

SS

I do not agree! With the method below (if you have patience to decipher this diagram, and as always this kind of diagrams are not the best to illustrate the methods to tie the knots on the bight), with a bit of exercise, it is a matter of ten seconds and even less (with no hurry ):I guarantee!

                                                                                                         Bye!
P.S. SS,I thank you for the animation in the other thread( http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4517.msg28989#msg28989 )
       xarax,my conscience is converted with regard of how the bowline should be represented, but my brain is still  victim of the
       atavistic conditioning ,so my images still show the traditional view(for now..)

     

    

 

 

[Luca]

Done!

[xarax]

With the method below (if you have patience to decipher this diagram, and. as always. this kind of diagrams are not the best [means] to illustrate the methods to tie the knots on the bight), with a bit of exercise, it is a matter of ten seconds and even less (with no hurry ):I guarantee!

   True. It is just four simple steps, 1, 2, 3, 4 - and I can say that the last one, which may seem the most complex, is the easiest ( reeve the one bight through the other, and pull it towards the Standing end ).
   However, simplicity is not related to the time required to perform a sequence of tying steps. Even if this time is not depending on the dexterity of the knot tyer, its experience on the particular knot or on knots tiable with similar methods, or on the stiffness of the material itself, it is TIME nevertheless, a very complex thing we can not correlate to SHAPE. We are trying to base the notion of simplicity on many things (1), but if we add on top of those things the parameter of tying time, we will be lost ! 
   Now, the successive shapes one has to form to tie the knot in the bight might not seem or be very complex, that is true - but they are more complex than the knot itself !    We would hope that such a very simple locked bowline would be tiable by a very simple tying method, and I can not say that this method is as simple as I had expected/hoped it to be...To my brain-washed mind, the original 3-bights method by which one can tie the pet loop is much easier, although the pet loop itself is more complex than the Lehman s locked bowline.
   That is why I claim it is not so-practical : it in not because it is not easy and quick, but because the knot itself is very simple, and can be tied at the end more easily and more quickly than in the bight. So, I do not thing that it will be tied as a TIB eye-knot very often - people who will need a TIB safe bowline will probably prefer another knot, IMHO. 

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3740

[SS369]

Hi SS and xarax,

    So, we have a known practical knot, and a not-so-practical TIB method to tie it - and a thread that describes those two things...Where should we put it ?

Seems like an exploration to me.
Anybody concur?

SS

I do not agree! With the method below (if you have patience to decipher this diagram, and as always this kind of diagrams are not the best to illustrate the methods to tie the knots on the bight), with a bit of exercise, it is a matter of ten seconds and even less (with no hurry ):I guarantee!

                                                                                                         Bye!
P.S. SS,I thank you for the animation in the other thread( http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4517.msg28989#msg28989 )
       xarax,my conscience is converted with regard of how the bowline should be represented, but my brain is still  victim of the
       atavistic conditioning ,so my images still show the traditional view(for now..)

     

     

 

 

Hi Luca.

You are welcome for the bit of animation, anytime just ask.

As far as not agreeing with me, good, that is why I asked. It would be better if there was a consensus here since it was asked for.  I am taking it that your input indicates you would rather it stay where it is?

SS

[Luca]

the method I have outlined above led me to believe that it was easy enough to get me to do the part of the bully and  be enough facetious that I implicitly propose to move this thread in the pratical knots board: for now I continue to believe that the method I have proposed is easy and fast , but in reality I have no serious objection to move this thread in the knotting concepts and explorations board!

                                                                                                       Bye!

[Dan_Lehman]

To the question of moving this thread,
IMO this is not so much an exploration as is wanted
by that title as an attempt to make a practical knot
all the more so by finding a good tying method.
(An example of knotting explorations would be the
exploring of various ways in which the bowline's
central nipping loop and working with bights tucked
through each other can produce a lode of handy
(and *new*) knots.)

Further to this (sub-)forum, I think that those
simple queries that come in should remain here as
evidence of work done, even though the quickly
given response might be "it is known ..."; there's
no gain by moving the thread to Practical Knots
only to sit there doing zilch --leave it here as evidence
of questions answered.

 - - - - - -

Now, to Luca's nifty tying method I must object that
it should begin with step-3's placement of the nipping
loop --and consequent sizing of material to form the
eye-- and continue from there with the forming of
a like loop that will be tucked through the first and
then "backflipped" (my term) around everything
to become the collar.  When I tie this knot, I think
of forming a clove hitch but the spacing out the
"cross span" part --which is to become the eye--,
before tucking one loop through the other and so
one, as Luca shows.  (I liken this loop-through-loop
maneuver to putting a coin into a slot.)

Note that this knot is one of four related versions.
If one begins with the line formed into the nipping
loop, vertically oriented --eye downward--, and the
crossing point of the loop at the 9:00 (West) point,
insert a bight in the tail up through the loop with
(a) tail on the right, (b) tail on the left),
(c) as for "a" and then twist this bight on the
vertical axis,
(d) as for "b" and then twist this bight ... .
(If you twist "a" one way it will become "b",
so go the opposite way, and similarly for "b"'s twist.)
I think that this discussed version looks best.


--dl*
====

[James Petersen]

I tried my hand at some pics and a video of this knot. The video is at: http://archive.org/details/LLockInBight

-- J:P

[James Petersen]

4 more.

[James Petersen]

Closeups of the finished knot.

edit:

I (very clumsily) edited the photos to make it clear which is the tail (the orange rope) and which is the standing end (the white rope).

[xarax]

   Hi JP,

   This is exactly the 3-bights method I was talking about at the first post, and at one following post.

Start from two bights formed in the line, the one after the other, at some distance from each other, and make a third bight by the line that is in between them / connects them, the "bridge". Then, pass one bight half way through a second one, from the "front" or the "back" side, and then reeve the remaining third bight all the way through the eye of this half-passed second one, also from the "front" or the "back" side. Some combinations will produce stable bowlines, some will not, but that is the dumb but also quite general way one can generate many simple TIB bowlines. Try it ! ( Also, before you half-pass or reeve one bight through the other, you can twist it 180 degrees around itself, so the possible stable combinations become more..)

  You see that, in this knot, you have to twist the one bight 90 degrees, indeed, before you half-pass it through the other. Also, you should pull the reeved bight towards the Standing end ( at the last stage of the dressing ), as said in :

reeve the one bight through the other, and pull it towards the Standing end

   The only thing you do differently is that you form the second bight around the neck of the first - in the 3-bights method, also followed in the Span loop, the two bights are first formed at a distance the one from the other, and at a next step the one is half-reeve through the other.
   I believe that the generality and the simplicity of this method have not been appreciated, because people wish to tie only this particular knot  - on the contrary,  I shad tarted with the intention to tie / explore all the different knots this method could generate, so I had not been forced to do reverse engineering ! 
 
   Try all the different combinations, as suggested, and see how many stable crossing knot-based bowlines, or "Common", single nipping turn-based bowlines you can tie - it has fun ! 

[Luca]

And for me nothing? ( (James, Thank you very much for the pics and the video! )

                                                                                                               Bye!

[xarax]

And for me nothing? :'

   I believe you should excuse me, because I have been so brain-washed by the 3-bights method, that any evaluation by me of your method would run the danger to be biased, and not as fair as it should be - so I decided I should avoid it. I tie all the 4 pet eye-knots, the Lehman s bowline and the Span loop by the same method for some time now, so I can not learn your new trick ! 

[Luca]

My new trick is identical to that of James!

[X1]

My new trick is identical to that of James!

   I can see that James trick is identical to mine s with the 3-bights ( and, perhaps, similar to Ashley s #1037...), but I can not see that your trick is identical to James !    And no one of them is identical to the trick presented at Reply#13 :
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4476.msg29203#msg29203
 
   I believe that the way everybody sees a knot is different, so the way one ties a knot does not have any relation whatsoever with anybody else s way !    I have seen thousands of fishermen and sailors tying bowlines, and I do not remember one instance I had the impression that any one of them did exactly the same thing I use to do...Perhaps I myself "see" what I do very differently than one who sees me...because the haptic perception one has for a small object he holds by his fingers is interwoven, in his mind, with the optical perception of it, in one jammed whole !
   Also, there are minor, perhaps, details in a shape that can attract one s eye and help one s brain memorize the general picture, but will not make any impression whatsoever to anybody else. The two lines that meet each other at a right angle, right at the centre of the perimeter of the nipping turn, at the third picture of Reply#13, were not placed in this position by chance...   but t can not estimate the mnemonic value, if any, of this detail for other people. Now that I have decided to see and show the two legs of the two bights that way, a tying sequence which follows exactly the same steps, but does not involve this particular detail, would seem very different to me !
   Knots, as shapes, may be less simple than we imagine, but tying those knots is always a much more complex procedure, involving many more parts of our brain, than we can realize ! The coordinated motion of parts of our body that sets in motion parts of other objects, and re-arranges them in space according to a stored mental image, is an extremely complex thing. It is planned and controlled by obscure regions hidden deep inside our brains, from an epoch even before we developed our eyes to become able to see the light of a day, and the "view" of a knot !