Zeppelin Loop versus Bowline?

[NotSure]

http://www.treebuzz.com/forum/showflat.php?Number=229971

See the last post on this page, concerning a verbal explanation of tying a TIB Zeppelin Loop.

Hi Festy,

I was unaware that there was such a thing as a TIB Zeppelin Loop and am very interested in playing with this to learn and understand its attributes...

Could you maybe direct me to a sketch or picture of this? I'm having a very hard time trying to follow your verbal explanation. I understand from your post that you start by forming a slip knot and then I'm completely lost from that point on for what to do next...

Thanks.

[kd8eeh]

I think he meant this knot, which i like much better than the ordinary zeppelin loop, since the loading actually makes it seem like a rope made hinge.

[roo]

I think he meant this knot, which i like much better than the ordinary zeppelin loop, since the loading actually makes it seem like a rope made hinge.

"Seeming like a rope made hinge" doesn't make it better.  Xaraxian eyeball & adjective analysis is worthless.  Let's stick to verifiable properties that actually mean something, such as jam resistance, security, easy of tying, etc.

Such an on-the-bight loop version of the Zeppelin is much bulkier, almost impossible to adjust, much harder to tie, and not practical.  It's not a contender for an end loop (the subject of this thread) due to its tying method.  There are much simpler options for midline loops:

http://notableknotindex.webs.com/butterflyloop.html
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/spanloop.html

[NotSure]

Thanks kd8eeh,

I understand now after studying that picture. I've been playing with this TIB type of Zeppelin loop for several minutes and now I see how it can quickly be tied through a loosened slip knot...

Some observations,

• It is bulky (but I think that is to be expected with anything Zeppelin).
• It doesn't jam or slip when ring loaded or pulled from one or both ends in the same direction.
• Neither is it easily adjustable.
• It's not going to rattle loose, no matter which way the lines might be tugged.
• When the ends are loaded opposed to each other, the loop knot transforms into a type of dropper loop knot at 90 degrees to the line.

My thoughts keep changing about this knot, it's kind of growing on me now as I keep experimenting with it as a dropper loop...

It's quite strong, but rather convoluted to both tie and untie. Definitely not one of my favorites, but I don't mind it either. As a dropper loop when loaded it takes quite a while to untie, working all the turns loose, but is easier to untie than a single Alpine Butterfly loop jammed after heaving loading...

[roo]

• It [midline loop attempt at a Zeppelin knot form] is bulky (but I think that is to be expected with anything Zeppelin).

The Zeppelin Bend/Loop is relatively trim using a total length of only about 34 rope diameters.  That's partly why it's so easy to adjust.   The bulkiness you correctly see in the midline loop attempt of a Zeppelin knot form is due to the forced, cringe-worthy duplication of rope paths in the knot form, not so much a property of the underlying form.

[NotSure]

Yes I agree, it's not really a Zeppelin.

It's not particularly pleasant to work with either, imo.

Ah well, the TIB Zeppelin Loop remains to be elusive it would seem. Too bad.

[kd8eeh]

What do you think of this tib zeppelin like loop?  I wrapped the tail around twice because the knot is otherwise too unstable and will capsize and slip, but it has the same collar and binding structure as a zeppelin, minus one half turn around the middle.

[NotSure]

I like it! I like it A LOT!! But it's actually a Perfection (Angler's) Loop with 2 wraps instead of 1.

I've never considered this as a mid-line loop before and I'm not sure why I've overlooked it for so long...

It withstands ring loading and loading from any direction on all 4 lines.

Loop size can be easily adjusted right before the final tuck and the loop length loss after the final tuck is negligible.

Tying it in the Bight is simple enough with practice. Start with a simple half twist loop, continue with 2 wraps around this half twist using the working end side of rope, then adjust your desired loop length by pulling the standing end of rope in through and back out of the wraps, finishing off by pulling the final loop through the tuck, dressing it tight. (It's easier than it sounds).

Untying is not difficult at all, if tackled from behind before the tackling the front. You just "break the back" of the second wrap before attempting to pull the loop back out of the tuck, then it's easy-peasy, no matter what loading took place.

Nice find/discovery kd8eeh!

[NotSure]

If you don't mind that it's not pet, I would recommend a double anglers loop over a zeppelin loop. By comparison, it is harder to untie after a light load, but it is stronger and more secure, easier to tie, and it is tib.

  Doh! I see you've already talked about this as TIB mid-line loop. One of these days I'll learn to read first...

To your credit though, you're the first person I know of that has mentioned it as a TIB loop, it's always been described as an end-of-line loop everywhere else, to my knowledge.

Cheers!

Edit: Son-of-a... This exact same knot also goes by the name of Double Dragon here:

http://daveroot.atspace.cc/knots/Knots_SingleLoops.htm

You know, I remember seeing that site years ago and for some reason I didn't like tying the DD or had trouble with it or something or other and just dropped it of my list. Ironically, it's virtually the same way I tie it now (kind of inbetween method 1 and method 2 - just to keep it compact in my hand during the tying)... Weird.

I'm going to stop talking now. *removes foot from mouth*

[Luca]

Hi NotSure,
Yes,the TIB loop shown above by kd8eeh,is not a double wrapped Angler's loop,which is not PET. It is a TIB and PET double wrapped Tugboat B(the loop well known as Double Dragon is the double wrapped Tugboat A) .If you perform the three loops shown at the Dave Root's site using the end of the rope rather than tie them on the bight, you will notice that the first two do not require the construction of a knot before returning back with the second leg of the eye to end the loop, whereas  the Perfection / Angler's loop requires you to perform before an Overhand knot.
In some old thread of this forum, roo points out that, although TIB, these loops are more suitable to be used as end-line loops, rather than in the middle of the rope loaded by both ends(even if in fact the double wrapped versions are more stable).
You can enjoy to note the differences between these three loops, and if you want,you can compare them to these other http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4354.0 , at first glance very similar but actually very different, and you can also play "Exchange the position of collars" of these three loops as suggested here http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4603.0 , or ideally do "cut and paste" as suggested here http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4476.msg28967#msg28967 , and see what happens!
For other loops that act as rope made hinges ​​by xarax and Dan Lehman: http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4095.0

                                                                                                                       Bye!

[NotSure]

Thanks Luca,

Those are some interesting links that I've skimmed through before, I think, and I'll be studying in a little more detail now that my interest is a little more peaked. I've got a lot of respect for X1/Xarax's contributions, but I find some of his creations get a little too loopy (literally) for my fumbling fingers to manipulate.

I lovvve knots that fall apart when it comes time to unravel them (ie, like a carrick bend/loop, or a zeppelin bend), without have to resort to a slipped section that could get caught and explode the knot.

The only reason I pursued this TIB Zeppelin loop was because if one did exist, I believe it would probably be even easier to untie than a fireman's chair knot, after being heavily strained.

The double dragon seemed promising, it beats a single loop alpine butterfly, but not the locked slipped loop, imo. So the never ending search for improvement continues.

[Dan_Lehman]

To your credit though, you're the first person I know of that has mentioned it as a TIB loop, it's always been described as an end-of-line loop everywhere else, to my knowledge.

NB: "TIB" doesn't necessarily mean that the
knot is good as a mid-line knot, only that
it can be tied without using ends --and sometimes
that alone is a helpful feature.

And, as discussed in another thread, one might
seek to use an eyeknot qua mid-line knot even
though it's not TIB --that the tying with the ends
will be acceptable given the use (or maybe the
shortness of the line) and the suitability of that
particular knot.

--dl*
====