Author Topic: Japanese Square Lashing variations  (Read 6470 times)

hartdr4

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Japanese Square Lashing variations
« on: July 17, 2013, 09:27:22 PM »
I noticed several variations of demonstrations of the Japanese Square Lashing. After the third wrap, some cross in back of vertical spar and start the frapping below the horizontal spar where as others do not cross but start frapping at the top of the horizontal spar (I hope that made sense).

I will be building an very large structure for a  Boy Scout event in October.  I will be lashing a 21  foot spar  to a 30 foot spar with diameters of 6 - 10 inches of pine tree trunks. We estimate the weight of the spar to be about 600 pounds. I believe that a Japanese Square lashing Mark II offers more security than the traditional square lashing.

Recommendations for best secure solution will be welcomed.

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Japanese Square Lashing variations
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2013, 04:03:50 PM »
It would be helpful if you gave some URLink'd images for
consideration in this discussion --a common reference.

I surmise that your needs are temporary --for a weekend,
or ... month?  That could affect recommendations, I'd think,
at least in terms of materials.  Btw, what do you see as the
lashing material?


Cheers,
--dl*
====

hartdr4

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Re: Japanese Square Lashing variations
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2013, 01:24:56 PM »
The structure will be up for a weekend. I plan to use Kermantel-III 7/16 rope for the lashings. The structure is a hyperbolic paraboloid hexahedron (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BxY0-YT9FgTOSmVqMkdPQlZCVXc/edit?usp=sharing

The Japanese Lashing Mark II illustration from Gerald Findley's Rope Works Plus (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BxY0-YT9FgTOV0FsLVhweHBMYTQ/edit?usp=sharing) shows the crossing of the ropes prior to the frapping. This seems like it would weaken the lashing. I really need the spars secure as there will be hundreds of young people walking thru the structure ... and probably pulling on it  ;)

SS369

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Re: Japanese Square Lashing variations
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2013, 01:50:29 PM »
Hello hartdr4 and welcome.

Nice little challenge you're embarking on. Should be interesting and fun.
Wow, KMIII 7/16", not so cheap, but a great static rope.

If you are going to spend that kind of money and the strength of the structure is paramount, why not go with the extra security of the  Japanese Lashing Mark III? It would be my pick as I believe the clove hitch below the lashed spar will help support the load even more.
It won't consume that much more of the rope and performance peace of mind will be there as well.

It is my opinion that the frapping wrapping will do most of the work, so getting them tight, then secured tight will be the significant event.

SS

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Japanese Square Lashing variations
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2013, 03:12:32 PM »
Hmmmm, the image for the structure --neat!-- implies
several lashings?  --of each pair of up-&-outward spars
to each other at roughly right (but maybe not quite) angles,
and of these lashed/crossed ends atop spars angling to a
common center point; and of the multiple such spars at
that point!?

7/16" rope seems awfully thick for lashing, although you
do have substantial diameters; but, still, maybe 3/8 or even
5/16" would work better.  KM-III, as Scott notes, is quite
a pricey lashing material --and darn strong!  (And it has
a mantle but not a mantel.  ;) )


As for "frapping turns", I can't see how they make all
so much difference, in many things (seizings) --where
they span so many wraps it's not possible for them
to pressure other than some few outer ones--;
in a case w/fewer wraps, there might be more effect.
Frankly, I'd like to see some full wraps of the bound
spars --i.e.,. 360degrees, for a sure grip--; the clove
hitch
does this, but it could as well be a round turn.

I'm really curious about how such large lashed items
get put into place : is it that you are focused on the
lashing of the up-&-out spars (at the lower, base end,
only ; the top point-joints come together ... ?); and
then how are these pairs set upon the centered spars?

If my surmise is correct --and how else to interpret the
structure image--, then the lashing of the up-&-outs
is to be loaded/oriented somewhat differently than a
vertical+horizontal joint --they'll be at equal, mirrored
angles to the 3rd spar, against which they'll bear.


--dl*
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Dan_Lehman

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Re: Japanese Square Lashing variations
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2013, 03:55:46 PM »
AND ... , the angles between spars is something determined
only by their final poistion.  Now, there are some lashings
that anticipate spar movement, but the square one doesn't
seem to be so accommodating (but rope *gives* for some
slight adjustment)!?


--dl*
====

hartdr4

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Re: Japanese Square Lashing variations
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2013, 04:30:36 PM »
Here is my third version of my model https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BxY0-YT9FgTOam1aeGNuYXZDNU0/edit?usp=sharing where scale is 1 inch = 1 foot. The six main spars are lashed together at top using a "cloverleaf" lashing or "quadra" lashing or "polypedestra". I'm not sure of the official name for the lashing but I found examples here: https://plus.google.com/photos/101174315670498927927/albums/5113744799468006609?banner=pwa

The arch supports will be lashed together using a sheer (shear) lashing and the ends will be attached to the main supports using a square  lashing. The webbing consists of rope attached to an eye bolt on one arch support, thru an eye bolt on the main support, then to an eye bolt on another arch support (horizontal plane). I plan on using polypropylene rope with eye splice on beginning eye bolt and probably anchor hitch at final eye bolt. At our pre-assembly location, I can install the eye bolts, eye splice, and coiled rope and then finish webbing at event location once structure is stood up. I'll probably use nylon webbing to hold the arch supports in place while the polyprop rope is run.

I really appreciate all the responses and advice. I have personal life issues that make this project especially challenging for me http://vimeo.com/48495732, but my goal is to demonstrate to the Scouts to not be afraid of great challenges...just take 'em on!

hartdr4

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Re: Japanese Square Lashing variations
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2013, 01:56:50 AM »
I will be building an very large structure for a  Boy Scout event in October. 
I will be lashing a 21  foot spar  to a 30 foot spar with diameters of 6 - 10 inches of pine tree trunks.
We estimate the weight of the spar to be about 600 pounds.

That is a large and complex structure. You will be lashing sets of 2 and 3 spars plus the central multiple spar combination.
Even though the basis will be two spar lashings, it looks like three two spar sets make up the central multiple spar combination, I think the 3 spar sets (attaching a two spar lashing to a third spar) at what looks close to 90 degrees, will be the most troublesome. Could you not rest it on a pegged Turk's Head?
Additionally the netting would seem to be a integral part of the structure.
Any chance you could build a scale model before you attempt the full size one?
I have a picture of the model here https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BxY0-YT9FgTOam1aeGNuYXZDNU0/edit?usp=sharing and a video of the possible lighting here https://vimeo.com/71225693. The six main spars are lashed together at top using a "cloverleaf" lashing or "quadra" lashing or "polypedestra". I'm not sure of the official name for the lashing but I found examples here: https://plus.google.com/photos/101174315670498927927/albums/5113744799468006609?banner=pwa

The arch supports will be lashed together using a sheer (shear) lashing and the ends will be attached to the main supports using a square  lashing. The webbing consists of rope attached to an eye bolt on one arch support, thru an eye bolt on the main support, then to an eye bolt on another arch support (horizontal plane). I plan on using polypropylene rope with eye splice on beginning eye bolt and probably anchor hitch at final eye bolt. At our pre-assembly location, I can install the eye bolts, eye splice, and coiled rope and then finish webbing at event location once structure is stood up. I'll probably use nylon webbing to hold the arch supports in place while the polyprop rope is run.

I really appreciate all the responses and advice. I have personal life issues that make this project especially challenging for me http://vimeo.com/48495732, but my goal is to demonstrate to the Scouts to not be afraid of great challenges...just take 'em on!

hartdr4

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Re: Japanese Square Lashing variations
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2013, 02:00:53 AM »
AND ... , the angles between spars is something determined
only by their final poistion.  Now, there are some lashings
that anticipate spar movement, but the square one doesn't
seem to be so accommodating (but rope *gives* for some
slight adjustment)!?


--dl*
====

I have a picture of the model here https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BxY0-YT9FgTOam1aeGNuYXZDNU0/edit?usp=sharing and a video of the possible lighting here https://vimeo.com/71225693. The six main spars are lashed together at top using a "cloverleaf" lashing or "quadra" lashing or "polypedestra". I'm not sure of the official name for the lashing but I found examples here: https://plus.google.com/photos/101174315670498927927/albums/5113744799468006609?banner=pwa

The arch supports will be lashed together using a sheer (shear) lashing and the ends will be attached to the main supports using a square  lashing. The webbing consists of rope attached to an eye bolt on one arch support, thru an eye bolt on the main support, then to an eye bolt on another arch support (horizontal plane). I plan on using polypropylene rope with eye splice on beginning eye bolt and probably anchor hitch at final eye bolt. At our pre-assembly location, I can install the eye bolts, eye splice, and coiled rope and then finish webbing at event location once structure is stood up. I'll probably use nylon webbing to hold the arch supports in place while the polyprop rope is run.

I really appreciate all the responses and advice. I have personal life issues that make this project especially challenging for me http://vimeo.com/48495732, but my goal is to demonstrate to the Scouts to not be afraid of great challenges...just take 'em on!

Larry Green

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Re: Japanese Square Lashing variations
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2014, 01:35:46 AM »
Hi Dan,

Thank you for your Woodbadge video. Bravo!

The gateway: What a project. How did it go? Do you have any photos from the camporee?

By the way, coincidentally (or BEYOND coincidentally) I came across some lashing demos on YouTube from Troop 316 just before registering to log into the IGKT forum, and was so impressed with their quality, I tried to look up the troop. Needless to say there are a lot of units with that same number. Where is the "Where Eagles Soar" Troop 316 located?

Very best wishes,

Larry Green http://scoutpioneering.com

hartdr4

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Re: Japanese Square Lashing variations
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2014, 04:43:59 AM »
 I became so focused on constructing the Gateway that I forgot to turn on my video camera. Fortunately, I had many friends who recorded the construction. I just finished a video/slide show about the Gateway. The Boy Scout District is presenting an award to me this week for my volunteer work. I'm also working on a paper for publication. I'll let you know when complete. Troop 316 is chartered through Normandy United Methodist Church of Centerville, Ohio, USA. Yes, those are my hands in the Troop 316 lashing videos.

This project became more than just another Camporee pioneering project, but rather a personal journey of self discovery. I was introduced to friends across the globe thru IGKT who offered their expertise and encouragement as well as many new friends and businesses in the community who offered their service without charge.  When the funding was cut, without my asking friends slipped checks into my hands and kept it going. It all came down to my friend (our Troop Scoutmaster) and myself tying 84 bluntline hitches in two hours to complete the Gateway after a thunderstorm. The Scouts all had the same reaction...Awesome Gateway!
 
Gateway Video link: https://vimeo.com/88030921