Author Topic: figure 8 sort-of loop, wonder what its name is and if it's stable  (Read 658 times)

alana

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what loop-forming knot is this?
is it stable?
thanks,

agent_smith

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Re: figure 8 sort-of loop, wonder what its name is and if it's stable
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2023, 07:16:00 AM »
It reminds me of the 'ASCii' Bowline courtesy of Mr Dan Lehman.

The middle image has variations - depending on which way the tail segment is positioned.
Keep in mind that every single knot has a mirror version - so you also view the middle image as its mirror inverse.
Note: When people illustrate or publish knots, they usually don't also show the mirror inverse versions... for example, if knot book authors did this, it would double the size of their publication.

By the way, I still don't know with 100% certainty which version is actually what he was trying to describe (via ASCii code).
Dan isn't known for his camera skills - and in this instance he sent me multiple emails using ASCii code to depict the geometry.
Meanwhile, I kept pulling my hair out and going thinner while trying to reproduce the intended geometry - while being admonished for each failed attempt :)

Anyhow, it appears that the middle image (or a variation of it) might be a close facsimile of what you have presented.

...

Given that you have not posted in 'new knot investigations', I assume that this is not a claim of originality?

alana

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Re: figure 8 sort-of loop, wonder what its name is and if it's stable
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2023, 09:28:33 AM »
agent_smiiith,
thanks for looking for / finding comparisons,

i was bumbling my way through trying to recall quick8 knots but too lazy to look up the post - which i now have looked up anyway, as to not be even more vague -
https://forum.igkt.net/index.php?topic=7114.msg46976#msg46976 (KC)

and i should've just done a quick search instead of hair-pulling.

to make a quick end-loop, i have used an unstable loop, the TIB made by starting with constrictor knot then one of the loops pulled through the other,
even though it is stable when pulled in that direction. but yes i could learn and use another more stable knot.

anyway, loop in question is really similar to your pics.
when tightened, there's a little triangle shape,
and triangle shape on both sides if i thread the tall from the other side, though that seemed unnatural to thread it on that side.

presumed not-new

all the best for weekend everyone

Kost_Greg

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Re: figure 8 sort-of loop, wonder what its name is and if it's stable
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2023, 05:25:58 PM »
Hello Alana here is a quick answer to your questions:

Quote
is it stable?
   Ans: Yes, in my view it's very stable.

Quote
what loop-forming knot is this?
  Ans: It is the anti-version of Xarax's Samisen bowline.

Have a look at the first image structure, which illustrates one of the Samisen bowline series by Xarax.If this is not familiar to you, then move to the second image structure which is the anti-version of the first, or your knot but in cowboy version, that is to say, with the tail placed outside of the loop (you'll understand later why i have chosen the cowboy version).

When you form a crossing knot, it is feasible to create two anti-versions, by inserting WE from both sides of the nipping structure.

The first is the more popular Cossak knot of third image (in slipped form it's called Kalmyk), and the other is yours or the lesser known anti-Samisen bowline.

So, inevitably, I am obliged to make a comparison between the two of them, as crossing knot based loops and as both anti-knots (they usually capture the out/on-going eye leg instead of the SP).

Which one is better, the Cossack or the anti-Samisen?

Despite its popularity, i personally would bet against the Cossack, because i regard it as an unstable knot.

I do not expect the knot to maintain its original crossing knot form, under heavy stress, it will rather distort to an anti-bowline.This also takes place when the Cossack is ring loaded. Ok, the anti-bowline is considered to be stable, yet the initial crossing knot nip, is transformed to a nipping loop.

On the other hand, your variant,  does not appear to distort and deviate from the crossing knot state, due to the returning, bight structure binding, retaining also a solid ring loading profile.

Dare i say, that the anti-version, might be better than the conventional Samisen bowline, in terms of jam resistance, because it features a collared SP, and the sharp turn is now placed at the on-going eye leg continuation, where less tension is expected, or at least lesser than the SP.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2023, 07:17:31 PM by Kost_Greg »
Going knots

alanleeknots

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Re: figure 8 sort-of loop, wonder what its name is and if it's stable
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2023, 07:32:31 AM »
Hi All,
        The first image below is the same as the first knot from my video, both are crossing knot loop.
        The  differences are right and left hand nipping loop, the tying method I have in the video
         make it  easy to understand, easy to tie and have better collars. Make it easy to untie.
         The second image is the same as the third knot from my video. It is crossing knot loop,
         The  differences are right and left hand nipping loop. this one also good method to tie this knot,
         Just start with crossing knot.
   The difference between the first image knot and the second image knot is that the first image
         (with my tying method)has a soft  cushion and a nipping loop is riding on the tail;
         the second image knot, more or less, is a trend self destruction.  Thanks.

 Knots Transformation and Modification Part 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwuB5kxvoa4&t=148s&ab_channel=alanleeknots



alana

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Re: figure 8 sort-of loop, wonder what its name is and if it's stable
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2023, 06:45:31 AM »
Hello Alana here is a quick answer to your questions:

Quote
is it stable?
   Ans: Yes, in my view it's very stable.

Quote
what loop-forming knot is this?
  Ans: It is the anti-version of Xarax's Samisen bowline.

Have a look at the first image structure, which illustrates one of the Samisen bowline series by Xarax.If this is not familiar to you, then move to the second image structure which is the anti-version of the first, or your knot but in cowboy version, that is to say, with the tail placed outside of the loop (you'll understand later why i have chosen the cowboy version).

thanks Greg for all this detail, and expedient,
and most of it over my head, all sorts of new names, but i love when i ask in the right place and can learn knottery that's practical and stable 😊
Al

a closer look and practising to ensue ...
« Last Edit: October 22, 2023, 06:47:07 AM by alana »

alana

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Re: figure 8 sort-of loop, wonder what its name is and if it's stable
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2023, 06:49:29 AM »
Hi All,
...
 Knots Transformation and Modification Part 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwuB5kxvoa4&t=148s&ab_channel=alanleeknots

thanks Alan for the video link,
of all the modifications,
liking the colouring on the cord end,
great demos


Dan_Lehman

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Re: figure 8 sort-of loop, wonder what its name is and if it's stable
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2023, 08:13:26 PM »
It reminds me of the 'ASCii' Bowline courtesy of Mr Dan Lehman.

The middle image has variations - depending on which way the tail segment is positioned.
IMO, the paradigm of the H&G "ASCII BWL" (H&G my source and
inspiration --I forget if this is THAT or similar w/Tail path reversed--,
"ASCII" as Mark describes my describing),
the U-fold grabbing the Tail should be "SS_369'd" --i.e., set TIGHT-snug,
UNlike a BWL's S.Part collar, or an Eskimo BWL's eye-leg collar.

Quote
Keep in mind that every single knot has a mirror version ...
Egadz, THIS again!?  Keep in mind that a Fig.8 has itself,
mirroring handily with just a rotation of the tied knot.

Quote
Note: When people illustrate or publish knots, they usually don't also show the mirror inverse versions... for example, if knot book authors did this, it would double the size of their publication.
And to no good purpose.
BEWARE : : : There have recently appeared on Amazon some
"knots" books --two, i.p., with "Bible" in their bold titles(!)--
that are AI-generated and absolutely terrible.  Imagine, a
general knots book with perhaps only 1/3 of listed/named
knots having ANY image?!?!?
Amazon seem happy with this,
and haven't heeded my protests to remove many of the
so-called "reviews" which are beyond the pale bogus in
light of the egregious failings of the book --i.e., things SO
bad that ANYone w/more than 1 brain cell will know it,
NOT a matter of some expert analysis to show as bad!!

Quote
By the way, I still don't know with 100% certainty
 which version is actually what he was trying to describe (via ASCii code).
As noted above :: the middle one works, but needs that
u-fold drawn tight-snug around the Returning Eye Leg
(noting though that some ropes' firmness makes this
a dubious task); one can go either way in making the
U-fold --swinging wide to avoid a tighter bend, or pulling
tighter for reverse direction,
and placing the Tail as seems best.
Main point :: there is a #1010 nipping loop, pure & simple;
the novelty (from a 1939 un-obvious and likely seldom even
noticed showing) being the Ret.Eye Leg's path *beside* the
nipping-loop opening, over the S.Part, and then into that
loop to secure the eye leg.
.:.  really helps to see this alongside Eskimo BWL variations
(I think there's some thinking of "variatioN" (singular not plural)
with the other thing named "Cossack"?.)

Quote
Dan isn't known for his camera skills
Oh, got a small prize here & there, even sold a print.

Quote
- and in this instance he sent me multiple emails using ASCii code to depict the geometry.
Meanwhile, I kept pulling my hair out and going thinner while trying to reproduce the intended geometry
 - while being admonished for each failed attempt :)
Language skills are important to have and USE!

--dl*
====

Dan_Lehman

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Re: figure 8 sort-of loop, wonder what its name is and if it's stable
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2023, 12:39:46 AM »
The middle image has variations -
//
Anyhow, it appears that the middle image (or a variation of it) might be a close facsimile of what you have presented.
Firstly, the citation to Hensel&Gretel's tome of nonsense,
for this unusual gem :: EKFR 83-36#196, "Crossed Hitches in Loop"
(or whatever comically inept name they have, like this).
(citation format : page-plate#<image#>)

AND, that version is LIKE MG's middle image
BUT with this difference :
the Returning Eye Leg, after collaring the S.Part,
should follow now the TAIL's path (in reverse, i.e.),
swinging "wide" to cross over the outgoing eye leg,
U-turn back under it,
and
tuck out through the nipping turn & OVER "its own part".
This is the H&G knot (or at least it can come from their
  image; but here they actually have different-length'd
  ends, implying the S.Part/Tail distinction used here),
which IMO is a decent version if not (always) the best.
(From here, one can play around with alternative positioning,
and inserting or adding in extension wraps & tucks.)

(The broad collaring by the Returning Eye leg LOOKS
soooo like the Outgoing Eye leg of the Eskimo BWL
that they can easily be confused.  Just remember that
in THIS knot, the nipping turn is *pure* loop --no chance
of being seen as a crossing knot; only deformable
into a more helical geometry.)

--dl*
====

alana

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Re: figure 8 sort-of loop, wonder what its name is and if it's stable
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2023, 08:51:30 AM »
you guys truly crack me up,
thanks, i needed to laff a bit

well!, i have put the stable loop to good use,
holding door handles in the down position, to stop the door making the clattering sound... for reasons, of course

 

anything