Knot terminology

[agent_smith]

Need consensus on knot terminology.

Referring to this site: http://notableknotindex.webs.com/glossary.html
[ ] Is this the correct definition of a 'turn'?
[ ] Is this the correct definition of a 'round turn'?

There are a number of other knotting terms I also need to confirm (eg overhand loop versus underhand loop, loop versus eye, etc).

Am getting ready to update a knot study guide...

[roo]

Need consensus on knot terminology.

Referring to this site: http://notableknotindex.webs.com/glossary.html
[ ] Is this the correct definition of a 'turn'?
[ ] Is this the correct definition of a 'round turn'?

There are a number of other knotting terms I also need to confirm (eg overhand loop versus underhand loop, loop versus eye, etc).

Am getting ready to update a knot study guide...

So we don't have to rehash it:
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2797.0

[xarax]

   In this Forum, there were a number of threads on the issue :
   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1616.0
   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1636.0

   See also :
 http://nodeology.pbworks.com/w/page/23011471/Knots-Terms

 P.S.
    For the overhand vs. underhand knot, for right-handed persons , see the picture of two over-hand knots, in :
    Knots, Splices and Rope Work, by A. Hyatt Verrill
    As we tie the over-hand knot, holding the Standing End with our left hand and the Working End with our "good", right hand, tracing the same directionality of the left-to-right form of most letters and of writing itself, the Working End passes over the Standing Part at the first crossing.

[zoranz]

       As we tie the over-hand knot, holding the Standing End with our "good", right hand...

I tried to tie an overhand automatically (with closed eyes, w/o thinking) and got the same as on the picture. But, found myself holding the Standing Part with left hand. (I am right-handed.)

Regards, ZZ

[xarax]

   You are right  , right handed people tend to keep an object steady with their left hand, while they "move" ( translate and/or rotate ) an object with their "good", right hand - because that ( to tuck an end, the Working End, through an opening of a tangle, i.e. to make it follow a rather complex 3 D path ) requires more dexterity. ( That is was what I wanted to write, but I had mixed the adjectives - I have now edited my phrase in the previous post. )

[roo]

There are a number of other knotting terms I also need to confirm (eg overhand loop versus underhand loop,...

On the "underhand loop"; you'll just garner giggles if you insist on hyperanalyzing the humble overhand loop.

Save such a name for a new loop that actually merits it.

[agent_smith]

So we don't have to rehash it:
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2797.0

Hmmmmm

Might have to seek reasoned advice elsewhere.

[SS369]

So we don't have to rehash it:
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2797.0

Hmmmmm

Might have to seek reasoned advice elsewhere.

No, lets have a discussion here and not let one forum member's comment derail your seeking of contributions.

SS

[xarax]

   I think that zoranz s test, described at Reply#3 (1), was very interesting and revealing - if we could repeat it with a sufficiently large number of individuals, we could possible explain the origin of the "overhand" term.

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=5231.msg34194#msg34194

[roo]

So we don't have to rehash it:
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2797.0

Hmmmmm

Might have to seek reasoned advice elsewhere.

I believe there were at least 3 external sources listed (with images) in that thread that describe exactly what a turn and round turn are.  I'm sorry if that is not good enough for you.

[xarax]

   As we tie the over-hand knot, holding the Standing End with our left hand and the Working End with our "good", right hand, tracing the same directionality of the left-to-right form of most letters and of writing itself, the Working End passes over the Standing Part at the first crossing.

   However, even if the Working End passes "over" the Standing Part at their first crossing, we may still tie a mirror-symmetric of that knot ( which is identical to the under-hand knot ), if our "good" right hand, which holds the Working End, will move in a counter-clockwise way - that is, if the "belly" of the knot, which connects the first to the last crossing point, will be at the "upper" side of the nub, in relation to the knot s axis. Therefore, it seems that there is something more which determines the form of the knot which the majority of the right-handed persons will tend to tie, and that is their preference to weave their hand in a clockwise rather than in counter-clockwise way.
   I would love to know what a left-handed knot tyer would say about this theory ! 

[agent_smith]

Roo, here's what I think:

I had a read through the threads as indicated.

I see only discussion and opinion - I dont see universal consensus. Most importantly, I dont see a lot of clear photos/illustrations to support the terminology. Words can be misunderstood - a photo in my view leaves little to speculation.

The only thread that grabbed my attention is http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1616.0  Yet again it is lacking in photographic detail and solid indisputable evidence based agreement.

I also am starting to find the abruptness and clipped responses somewhat distasteful. I am unclear what the source of the irritation is.

I merely ask the questions - yet I still don't see anything approaching concrete evidenced-based universal agreement. I only see debate and opinion.

Mark

[SS369]

Hi Mark.

I consider a round turn to be a complete encirclement of an object with respect to rope work. The rope goes around the item completely (not a bight), returning to the start.
2/3 of that is a turn, where the tail is away from the standing part.
As shown in the image at the page bottom at this link http://americanboating.org/safety_knot_tying.asp

SS

[xarax]

   Starting from the basic turn, which is the single turn ( 360 degrees ), I believe that the round turn should be any turn between 1 1/2 single turns ( 540 degrees ) and 1 3/4 single turns ( 630 degrees ) - then, 2 single turns is a double turn ( 720 degrees ). This is because, even if the two ends, when they leave the encircled object, are not parallel to each other, but perpendicular ( as it happens in many cases when we tie a not-too-tight round-turn-and-two-half-hitches hitch ), we still have a round turn, and not two single turns = a complete double turn. 

[agent_smith]

Interesting.

Have a look at the CMC '540' rescue belay device here: http://www.cmcrescue.com/equipment/traverse-540-rescue-belay
Any wonder why they decided to call it a '540' rescue belay?
User instructions here: http://traverserescue.com/downloads/540%20Belay%20Instructions-Small_Feb5-09.pdf
Note the terminology in the user instructions on page 1.
Note the term "One and a half wraps" to denote a total of 540 degrees.

Just thought this might be interesting. The user instructions are obviously aimed at the mass market and a person with typical knotting skills found within the rope rescue community.

I am not stating that these user instructions are using correct terms...I am merely advising that this info is out in the public domain.

Mark