What is the purpose of a knot ? ( Wanted : A knot for a purpose.)

[xarax]

  Most people, knot tyers included, believe that a knot is a means to an end rather than an end in itself. They believe that knots are tools which serve purposes over and above the knots themselves - for example, to bind two or more objects together, to suspend a heavy object in mid air, etc.  In this context, if knots "work", if they "do the job", they are OK : the ends justify the means.   
  This is not a "wrong" attitude, it is just a restricted, narrow and naive attitude, which limits the scope of the knot tying endeavour.
  We have attempted to discuss this issue in the Forum in the past, but it seems that when a view happens to be defended only by the "minority", the "majority" is suddenly turned into something of a mob - perhaps because established religious fundamentalists can not tolerate heretics !   
  A couple of recent comments on what I dare to think on this, offer me the opportunity to try to explain my view yet another time.
  The purpose of a knot is to be knotted, and to remain so.
  The purpose of a knot is to entangle one or more pair of rope ends, and to keep them entangled, and securely "locked" inside the knot s nub, even if/when it happens that some of those ends are tensioned. In other words, the purpose of a knot is to immobilize two or more tensioned ends of the entangled rope(s), so they do not slip out of the knot, even if/when they are tensioned.
   The knot is a rope-made mechanism ( even the simplest knots incorporate many rope-made simple machines ; levers, pulleys, wedges ), which can, and should, be studied as such. If possible, it should be analysed in simpler "elements", and the reasons behind its structural and functional properties should be investigated. ( Why it jams ? Is there some feature common in all knots that do jam ? Is there a way to design knots that do not jam ? )
   People built the steam engine for a purpose, but the study of its properties, as a mechanism and a heat exchanger, contributed to the fields of physics called mechanics and thermodynamics - which allowed us to built better steam engines, among other things !
   I could also express the same view otherwise :
   "What is a knot ?"
   "I do not know - please, tell me one kind of knot."
   "A bend."
   "OK, then. A bend is a tangle of two ropes which joins the one end of the one with the other end of the other."

   Now, I believe that the unbiased reader got the idea - and I will proceed with a question which asks for a knot for such a particular "purpose"  :
   A midline-to-midline TIB-to-TIB bend, able to withstand loading from any pair of its four ends.
   
   From time to time, I try my hand in such a knot, but I have never came across something that caught my eye - so I now think that there may not be such a knot, because there can not be : the "purpose" itself seems to be too complex, and it leads to too complex knots (*), which can not be considered as practical.

(*) For example, they should incorporate one or more ugly unloaded bights stemming out of the nub and gawking around - the ones I had called "dL s bights" :
   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=5269.msg34591#msg34591
   http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4425.msg28055#msg28055
   The simplest example of a "dL s bight" - which, just because it is very simple, it is not sooo ugly...- is the bight of ABoK#1492, shown in the attached picture.

[alpineer]

You're on the road to nowhere. Is the purpose of a rope to be a rope?

[Twine]

The purpose of a rope is to hold things together, and the purpose of the knot is to help the rope achieve this.

[xarax]

   You're on the road to nowhere. Is the purpose of a rope is to be a rope ?

   It is amusing you did not get anything, ever, of what I have said time and again, about the study of mathematical or physical objects as such, and the utilization of mathematical or physical objects as tools for specific useful or harmful applications - but I have to admit that it was also very educative, too, for me, and I have to thank you for that. 
   The "purpose" of a rope, per se, is : 1. to be flexible, but not elastic lengthwise, and, 2. to retain more or less its circular cross section, without being altogether flattened out and transformed into a membrane. This happens only to some degree, of course, but, in general, we distinguish rubber-made bands ( which work as springs ) from ropes. Also, we often define a physical "rope" as an object which is subject to friction, although this is not strictly necessary : all physical objects are.
   So, imagine a cylindrical object which can flex, but not expand much towards its length or width. Some people call this object "a rope", even if/when they do not use it to tie their shoes, commit suicide by hanging themselves, climb on the cliffs of mountains, etc. I happen to belong to those people, but, evidently, you do not...    
   ( I know that most climbers in this Forum went mad because they felt "insulted"(sic) when I dared to say that climbers, in general, are poor knot tyers - and provided specific arguments for this ( their total ignorance and indifference of the many stable forms the fig.8 knot can be dressed ).( Fortunately, my friends who also happen to be surgeons, had not felt the same way, although they tie a much greater variety and number of knots than climbers ! ). So, I expect more comments like this "wise" "on the road to nowhere"(sic)... I wonder, do climber really believe that ropes and knots are made by RopeGod and KnotGod for them ? And for whom did MountainGod make His creation ?  Is the purpose of the NUMBERS the collection of taxes ?    Is the purpose of the CIRCLE the wheel ? 
   I advise people that are interested in knots only "as means to an end" ( THEIR own end, of course...)  to keep tying those knots, and only those knots, as they do, and refrain from studying other knots, and talking about other knots, and about poor people that enjoy tying all kinds of knots, without using any of them, like me. It would be better for all - and, what matters most, it would be better for the knots ! 
   

[Dan_Lehman]

   You're on the road to nowhere. Is the purpose of a rope is to be a rope ?

      

   (The purpose of keystrokes is ... more keystrokes!)

The "purpose" of a rope, per se, is : 1. to be flexible, but not elastic lengthwise,
and, ... not expand much towards its length or width.  Some people call this object "a rope",
even if/when they do not use it to tie their shoes, commit suicide by hanging themselves,
climb on the cliffs of mountains, etc. I happen to belong to those people, but, evidently, you do not...    

Evidently not, as being on mountains and climbing
cliffs (and not knotting for nothing), he uses one of
those not-a-rope springy things that poor knot-tying
rockclimbers call "rope", which can stretch another
50% before rupture!

   ( I know that most climbers in this Forum went mad because they felt "insulted"(sic) when I dared to say that climbers, in general, are poor knot tyers - and provided specific arguments for this ( their total ignorance and indifference of the many stable forms the fig.8 knot can be dressed )

But you haven't shown how this alleged indifference
in any way matters --as to why they should care.


--dl*
====

[xarax]

  not knotting for nothing

   Knotting for nothing !  I will seriously consider that title for my knot booklet... Thank you.

   those not-a-rope springy things

   Springy-things are NOT springs ( which obey Hook s law )  - but perhaps climbers do not need to know what "a spring" is, indeed... Anyway. I would be surprised if a rope ( NOT a bungee cord...) could stretch 50% before it breaks. And I doubt that it will be "springy" during all this stretching - it will reach the area of plastic deformation, where it is not "springy" any more, well before that.
   I was talking about ropes not-being elastic - but , evidently, you have being climbing too much lately... Beware of the lack of oxygen in high altitudes !  Brain cells eat sugar and oxygen, and when you leave them to starve, they die, and they are not born again...
   I do not include bungee cords and other such elastic materials in what I think as "a rope", also because I believe knots on those materials "work" very differently.

  But you haven't shown how this alleged indifference in any way matters --as to why they should care.

   I haven't shown this, because "I" do not care !  T
   The "purpose" of knots, for me, does not include educating people that should had known better, because they use those knots, as tools for their own purposes. And because it is better to them be knot-illiterate and poor-knot-tyers, but good climbers, than the opposite. However, their SILENCE on the issue of how many stable fig.8 bends and loops exist, is PURE ignorance, and POOR knotting.
.......................................................
   Knotting for nothing !   
   

[xarax]

   I have also to notice the SILENCE of the "Climbers and Co." community, on the second issue of this thread.
   

   A midline-to-midline TIB-to-TIB bend, able to withstand loading from any pair of its four ends.

   No need of such a knot for the "purpose" of climbing, I guess... And, unfortunately, there is no such knot in the Bible.
   My "unsolicited" advice : Sugar and oxygen ! 

[Dan_Lehman]

   I have also to notice the SILENCE of the "Climbers and Co." community, on the second issue of this thread.
   

   A midline-to-midline TIB-to-TIB bend, able to withstand loading from any pair of its four ends.

   No need of such a knot for the "purpose" of climbing, I guess... And, unfortunately, there is no such knot in the Bible.
   My "unsolicited" advice : Sugar and oxygen ! 

Or for any other purpose --or what do you (& Roo) have in mind?
(And, btw, why stop at just two ropes so joined --when you could
explore the joining of three, or four, or ... infinitely more!      )

So how is it "unfortunate" [sic] to be left out of "the Bible" [sic] ?!

--dl*
====

[xarax]

   Or for any other purpose

...except the "purpose" I have been talking about all the time - but you have not understood : The purpose of remain knotted !
  I want/need to know if such a knot does exist, even if it will never serve ANY "purpose" - and perhaps then even more so, because we have seen where most "purposes" lead... The road to hell is paved with good intentions. 
  It is a puzzle - whoever does not feel intrigued to solve puzzles, and the satisfaction when he succeeds in that seemingly useless mental challenge, will never solve a real problem either. 

[SS369]

To do some work, to decorate or to study. Or therapy.

SS

[xarax]

Or therapy.

  Especially for that !  ( which, apparently, some of us need, to a larger or smaller degree... )