Author Topic: Forensic Knot - Photo 2  (Read 5600 times)

spatio

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Re: Forensic Knot - Photo 2
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2015, 02:27:09 AM »
1) This ligature is going around a neck. As you can see the larger knot is the primary culprit. I think the smaller knot was some sort of afterthought, really not critical or a major "player".
2) Wouldn't want to tamper w/ evidence.
3) I am fairly certain careful scrutiny of the photos will "untangle" the Knot enough.
4) I am not sure where "six ends" is displayed. I see 4.
5) As to the other End of the Hoodie string being "cutoff" for ease of removing entire string - this is only conjecture, based on logic, not science. All we can do "right now" is deduce as best we can. All I know is that only One of the ends had a regular hoodie knot at the end.
6) I think its best to stay focused on the primary knot. Alot of the technical jargon, I can't understand. I am looking for general characteristics: origin, comlpexity, etc..
7) Theres facts about this case I really can't get into, but i am fairly certain, the primary Knot, the "killer knot", was tied with speed, skill, a tremendous amount of force and deadly effect, as you can see.

alpineer

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Re: Forensic Knot - Photo 2
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2015, 03:50:49 AM »
Do you currently have access to the physical knot and are thereby able to view it in greater detail than we in the forum?  Are you able, with some certainty, to tie a facsimile in some other material so as not to disturb the original?
You could then upload the loosened form of the knot for our perusal. As it stands it's guesswork so far, although Dan L.'s noting of size (lack of bulk) is a solid observation/indication of what the knot may be. 
« Last Edit: May 28, 2015, 03:52:07 AM by alpineer »

Twine

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Re: Forensic Knot - Photo 2
« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2015, 04:30:19 AM »
Somehow Twine deduced victim's gender?  (Or I've missed
text somewhere.)  Can we know the position of the knotted
parts as found on the victim (I cannot make sense of the
gruesome image beyond *flesh*)?

Yes, Dan, I deduced her gender. I deduced it from the image, where we can see some kind of gaudy blue garment which I wouldn't expect to see on a man, and also from the fact that the flesh that's shown in the image is smooth and hairless, like that of a woman. Not a trace of beard or chest hair or anything. The knotted parts are two loops around her neck, as you may see in the image if you can stomach studying it carefully. Many things are conveyed in images at least as well as in text. Regarding the position of the ropes there really *is* some text: the caption for the smaller loop (in the drawing) reads "also around the neck" or words to that effect, which implies that both loops were around her neck.

And yes, you're right about not tampering with evidence, I suppose, but it's still a pity they can't loosen a knot just a little bit in order to find out what it really is.

Alpineer's idea about making a facsimile of the knot is a good one, if spatio can make one.

I, like Dan, think the big knot is at least *something* like a reef knot tied around a rope. But I think that structure was formed in the process of forming a loop to strangle her or tie her to something or both.

To recapitulate: I think she was first "leashed" with the smaller knot, with a short tail and a long leash. The knot on that "leash" wouldn't work as a noose, so to make a rope mechanism to strangle her they took the leash one more turn around her neck, then took the rest of the leash around some object they wanted to tie her to/hang her from and fastened it back to the strangling loop, forming the big knot in the process. A closer study of the knots could determine if this was likely.

At this stage in the murder scenario (if it happened the way I think) there are two loops around the neck and one rope around some object she's attached to or hanging from. I further assume she died from this treatment (but of course I'm only guessing since spatio hasn't *explicitly* said that strangulation and nothing else was determined as the cause of death).

Finally, after she died, I think the loop she was hanging from was cut so they could transport her body to somewhere else. That is why we see six parts coming out of the big knot, two of them together forming a loop. I think it is more than likely that a pair of the tails we see in that bigger knot was a loop around some object before they cut it. A study of the ends of the tails might tell if this was the case.

Do you think the scenario I sketched here would be consistent with the knots we have been shown?

This is the second forensic knot question on this forum in a rather short time. Maybe it would be a good idea for police forces everywhere to make some of their officers undertake a study of knots and knotting.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2015, 04:35:06 AM by Twine »
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication" - Leonardo da Vinci

Twine

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Re: Forensic Knot - Photo 2
« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2015, 06:15:10 AM »
Also Twine, to follow up -

I think I understand now what you mean by tails, essentially the "end" of the initial rope.
Not exactly, but pretty close. The "tail end" is the unused end that sticks out from a knot, its opposite is usually the "standing part" which is generally the part of a rope that is attached to something already before you start tying the knot, the standing part could be attached to a ship or a tree, for instance.

Usually there are four "parts" going into a knot. In an ordinary loop knot the four parts are the standing part, the tail and both the "legs" of the loop. In a "bend" which means a knot used to tie two ropes together, you have two tails, and two standing parts.

The big knot in your picture seems to have SIX parts coming out of it, and that means it is somehow special, it could be more of a "rope mechanism" than a simple, common knot with a name.

Quote
Interestingly enough, there appeared to be only one "original" end of the string. I could tell because it had a normal knot at the end of it, like most hoodie strings do.  That tail, would have been one of the two "free ends" labeled on the left hand side of the reference view. I believe the other "tail" was removed/cutoff by the perpetrator in order to be able to pull the string thru the Hoodie and out "free". Without cutting off the other tail, it would have likely been impossible, to pull the string thru and out of the Hoodie in the first place, i.e. out, i.e. free, in order to use the entire rope "at will".

Hope that makes sense
thank you
spatiio

That makes perfect sense to me. They may well have cut off the knotted end to be able to pull the drawstring out of the Hoodie.

Apart from that, I think it would help if we could see the entire string in a single picture, the knots, the ends, all of it in the same photo. Perhaps you could also tape the ends that were cut (by police or coroner, I assume) together as well, to make the entire rope mechanism visible. The relative lengths of the free ends may be telling.

Something else: As someone else already noticed, the small knot may actually be an overhand knot tied around a piece of the same string. I didn't notice that at first. It looked a bit like a reef knot or maybe a granny to me. But if it is an overhand knot, it is important to note whether it is tied around the standing part or around the end that forms the tail, since such a knot has opposite properties in these configurations. In one of these configurations, the loop constricts when there is a pull on the standing part, in the other, it allows the loop to widen when the standing part is pulled. I couldn't determine from your pictures which one it was. It looks like that knot has been tied with considerable force. Maybe whoever tied the knot made a mistake and tied a slip knot instead of a noose and then tried to fix it by tying the overhand so hard that it would stop the loop from slipping open through force of friction instead of through the correct geometry. Or maybe it was tied as a noose and drawn tight by pulling on the standing part, but that would probably have killed the victim all by itself, and also embedded that loop in the neck tissue, which apparently didn't happen, so that's not so likely.

More pictures are needed, pictures that show the ends of the rope, where they go and how long they are, at the same time as they show the knots.

Showing a knot without showing the rope ends can lead to the wrong conclusions. The shape of a knot when you can't see how the parts going into the knot are connected is almost meaningless. I wish I had some pictures to illustrate that. But you can look up pictures of the bowline and the sheet bend and compare them. If you don't look at the parts and how they are connected, the knots are identical, but in reality, when you take the the parts into consideration, they have totally different functions, they work in different ways and are tied with different methods.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2015, 05:31:26 PM by Twine »
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication" - Leonardo da Vinci