Author Topic: Tying the Blood Knot  (Read 5710 times)

DerekSmith

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Tying the Blood Knot
« on: September 28, 2006, 07:56:11 PM »
In the version of the Blood knot I  tie, the wraps are only around the opposite SPart i.e. a single diameter.

This is one way to tie the knot, but if made in the usual materials for it (i.e., in
some fishline), the successive turns of the SParts will move out into the wraps
of the end and result in the form with wraps around the opposed SParts.  (In Barnes's
terms, "outcoil" & "incoil" tying methods.)

*knudeNoggin*

OK, that thread was starting to get a tad off topic, however, I am interested in you description of tying the Blood in its 'usual material' and in what you describe as (In Barnes's terms, "outcoil" & "incoil" tying methods.).

The method I am used to using is described well on the Wikepidia page following and shows the turns clearly single diameter after the two diameter 90 degree twist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:BloodKnot_HowTo.jpg

Also, the following sea fishing site and others using monofilament stress that the turns should remain single as here:-

http://www.sea-fishing.org/fishing-blood-knot.html

Do you have any web references for the method you have outlined

Derek

KnotNow!

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Re: Tying the Blood Knot
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2006, 04:18:56 AM »
Once again I've been linked to a site which has caused my ISP to dump me.  I can't click on a link for a look at a knot for the fear that my ISP will disconnect.  Hours later and rebooting and reconfiguration will result.  That causes me distress in my bladder (pee on it?).  So if we are to become the "IGKT high speed interconnect site" then have at it.  I have "Dial up".  Very slow dial up.  How about posting to a gallery or going to KHWW and posting there?  I hate to say it but KHWW seems to be the better site.  I'll pay my dues to IGKT and continue to contribute articles for KM as I have in the past,.. but When I asked why my branch posting of articles in Knot News were not republished in Knotting Matters (the good ones that is, well you have not read them ehh?)... and now we are at the splinter point.... Sorry, off thread.  Blood knot.  Simple as green grass.  Don't make a federal case out of it.  Forgive me if I am too blunt.  One of the links is a blood knot bend.  it isn't rocket science.  Fishermen tie a blood knot that is a bend. Whip makers tie a blood knot as as an end knot.  The bend is for mono filiment line.  The whip makers use anything that comes to hand... mostly leather.  How hard can it be to see the difference?  As usual I may have missed the point.... sorry.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2006, 04:27:26 AM by KnotNow! »
ROY S. CHAPMAN, IGKT-PAB BOARD.

DerekSmith

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Re: Tying the Blood Knot
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2006, 09:12:44 AM »
Hi Roy,

Sorry to point you off to a heavy site.  The Wikepedia image is big.  Perhaps it's time to change to Firefox and disable images as we discussed before.  If your browser doesn't call for the image to be downloaded, then your ISP doesn't bump you off.

Issue on Blood Knot - yup you got the wrong end of the stick - KnudeNoggin apparently ties it in a different manner and I was after trying to get him to share his method with us - especially Barnes's "outcoil" and "incoil" methods.

Give me a PM if you need a hand with Firefox.

Derek
« Last Edit: September 29, 2006, 04:51:20 PM by Fairlead »

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Tying the Blood Knot
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2006, 04:12:11 AM »
Quote
Blood knot.  Simple as green grass.  Don't make a federal case out of it.  Forgive me if I am too blunt.

It's not that you're too blunt, but that you're missing the point:  take a click on "blood knot"
with Google Images and see what comes up--how much of that makes sense?  A old
complaint I have with angling knots presentations is that the results are almost always
presented WAY TOO VAGUELY as little jumbles of allegedly properly knotted line
--but one cannot discern the final knotted structure.  No, the tying steps must
be followed carefully (if right, i.e.), and then one must just have faith that your result
is what's intended--can't really do a side-by-side check, 'cause all the artist has given
you is a bunch of zigzag lines indicating tensioned coils or whatever.   *&@$*@&$%
For a nice final image, see Des Pawson's The Handbook of Knots.

So, on-line (and why must Derek have an on-line source?  --the track record for
this knot isn't good) searching turns up a load of outcoil tying and many of these
presentations give no clue that some transformation of the structure will/should
occur; some outright imply the contrary!

Here is a site with a Budworth (flow-motion'd ?) INCOIL tying method presented:
alert:  this is animated image; you must copy and remove spaces in URL
>>>>  www. noreast.com /knots/ knotspage4.  cfm <<<
(so an on-line & in-book source, we may presume).  Though the point made previously
was that the different methods should nevertheless yield the same result, which is a
sort of, we might say, "incoil"'d knot.  This result is hard NOT to get in monofilament
line; but in more frictive stuff, one can set the knot in to result in an outcoil form for
at least some lesser tensions--likely with some but maybe slight transformation to
occur as tension increases.  This transformation is indicated as partially occurring
even during tying--with the end more evenly twisting WITH the SPart in its
outcoil reach, with a resulting incoil structure--in images taken from another "Geoff",
Geoff Wilson.

That so many sites out there, and i.p. those by Grog, Chisholm, & some supposed
fishing & scouting sites, have presented the venerable Blood knot as they do is
truly discouraging.  The IGKT has a lot of work to do in part of its chartered goals.
I have added a correction to the Wikipedia page; it's a start.

--dl*
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DerekSmith

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Re: Tying the Blood Knot
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2006, 10:34:54 AM »

So, on-line (and why must Derek have an on-line source?  --the track record for
this knot isn't good)
--dl*
====

The reason for that request Dan is easy.  This is an online discussion medium and while readers may not have access to all (or indeed any) of the hardcopy texts to which you refer, we all have access to any online references that you may use and we will all be looking at exactly the same image/reference you link to.

The more references you make to hard copy texts, the greater the chance is that you will leave progressively more and more readers behind - using online links, we can all stay with you.

I agree that the internet is full of error and contradiction (sadly also the case for some hard copy texts) but at least you have the choice of which online reference you point us to in order to support your arguements.

Derek

DerekSmith

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Re: Tying the Blood Knot
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2006, 01:40:00 PM »
searching turns up a load of outcoil tying and many of these
presentations give no clue that some transformation of the structure will/should
occur; some outright imply the contrary!

Here is a site with a Budworth (flow-motion'd ?) INCOIL tying method presented:
alert:  this is animated image; you must copy and remove spaces in URL
>>>>  www. noreast.com /knots/ knotspage4.  cfm <<<
(so an on-line & in-book source, we may presume).  Though the point made previously
was that the different methods should nevertheless yield the same result, which is a
sort of, we might say, "incoil"'d knot.  This result is hard NOT to get in monofilament
line; but in more frictive stuff, one can set the knot in to result in an outcoil form for
at least some lesser tensions--likely with some but maybe slight transformation to
occur as tension increases.  This transformation is indicated as partially occurring
even during tying--with the end more evenly twisting WITH the SPart in its
outcoil reach, with a resulting incoil structure--in images taken from another "Geoff",
Geoff Wilson.

That so many sites out there, and i.p. those by Grog, Chisholm, & some supposed
fishing & scouting sites, have presented the venerable Blood knot as they do is
truly discouraging.  The IGKT has a lot of work to do in part of its chartered goals.
I have added a correction to the Wikipedia page; it's a start.

--dl*
====

Thanks for your patience Dan, I now understand the processes of 'outcoiling' and 'incoiling', and after a mornings tying I now also understand your position re the 'right' form of the Blood Knot.  Even in grippy braid, the outcoiled variant wants to convert to the incoil and finishes as a messy hybrid of incoiling over outcoiling, but as you pointed out, in mono the knot only has one stable configuration and that is the incoil.  Once tied as the incoil however, all cords braids, laid or mono stayed as the incoil, but if tied as the outcoil, most media made some attempt to change back to the incoil.  I feel that this clearly supports you stance and I can understand you position that the IGKT should only promote the stable incoil knot and tying method.

So, back to the topic that brought us here.  The path of the cord through the Blood Knot and your stance that a tight 1 diameter turn was not a weak point because the Blood Knot had one and the Blood Knot was considered to be a strong knot.  I understand now how you saw the coils as being over two diameters, indeed they are - except for the very first turn at the start of the incoil.  so, the Blood Knot does indeed have a one diameter turn, but it is at the opposite side of the knot to its SPart which has had to travel through the center of a number of gripping coils allowing much of the load to be shed before any force gets near to the back coil.  Certainly, all of the samples I made and destructed had the coils sections set like stone they were gripping the respective SParts so tightly.

As expected, none of my samples broke at the 1 diameter turn - they all failed outside of the knot, just in front of the opposite ends 1 dia coil (Note, again I used the protocol of static load to ca 60% fail, then shock load to rupture) - Yet again, reality had a surprise in store for me !!

The best example of the failure was in cotton cord. The tight nip caused rupture of the incoming fibres.  As some fibres failed, the bundle lost strength and other (stronger) fibres tore just outside of the knot.

 

anything