Author Topic: "Lehman8" and "Zeppelin loop " - which is more difficult to untie ?  (Read 21235 times)

xarax

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Re: "Lehman8" and "Zeppelin loop " - which is more difficult to untie ?
« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2015, 04:15:18 PM »
   Only people that had never understood what the genuine Zeppelin knot, the Zeppelin bend, is, and how it works, make "a quick check of both sides"(sic) :).
   The Zeppelin bend is nothing but a rope-made hinge - and there are no hinges where the leafs themselves are hooked to each other !
   
This is not a knot.

Dan_Lehman

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Re: "Lehman8" and "Zeppelin loop " - which is more difficult to untie ?
« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2015, 08:27:31 AM »
   Only people that had never understood what the genuine Zeppelin knot, the Zeppelin bend, is, and how it works, make "a quick check of both sides"(sic) :).
   The Zeppelin bend is nothing but a rope-made hinge - and there are no hinges where the leafs themselves are hooked to each other !
 
Only someone still unclear on the subject of discussion
(how to discuss, i.e.) will continue to harp on this old
sorry tune so much as to miss the fact that insofar as
the z. has any "hinge" so too has this "imposter"
--there is no "hook"ing of any "leafs" to each other
(though that too might be hinge-worthy,
and in better knots, is what is done   ;) ).

--dl*
====

xarax

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Re: "Lehman8" and "Zeppelin loop " - which is more difficult to untie ?
« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2015, 09:30:05 AM »
   I am really sorry to notice that more and more you understand less and less than I suppose you can and you will ...
   My remark was, obviously ( for me, at least ), about the difference between the Zeppelin and the Hunter s bend, the difference regarding the "b&q ness" Mobious  was talking about and roo commented on.
  (  I have also to inform you that I happen to "see" some, at least, "old" knots ( including the Zeppelin bend ), more clear than you can even imagine you will ever do - and that is why I manage to tie some "new" ones - while you are occupied with more important things : the noble duty to always defend roo and go after me when you think you can, like in this silly case - because you would nt dare to say anything about my knots, of course !  No, continue roo s strategy, "do not feed the troll"(me), keep silent : eventually they may be forgotten ! :) :) :) ) )
This is not a knot.

Dan_Lehman

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Re: "Lehman8" and "Zeppelin loop " - which is more difficult to untie ?
« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2015, 04:20:10 PM »
   I am really sorry to notice that more and more
Rather, "presuming to notice ...".

Quote
... you understand less and less than I suppose you can and you will ...
   My remark was, obviously ( for me, at least ),
Moi, aussi.

Quote
about the difference between the Zeppelin and the Hunter's bend,
the difference regarding the "b&q ness" Mobious  was talking about and roo commented on.
No, the difference that they remarked at --to the point
of comparing "side"s to see that they look the same--
is that between the zeppelin & the knot M. presented
(which only *resembles* SmitHunter's bend
--i.p., it does NOT interlock overhands by "hook"ing "leafs";
but it does do everything else of the z.!)

Quote
(  I have also to inform you that I happen to "see" some,
at least, "old" knots ( including the Zeppelin bend ),
more clear than you can even imagine you will ever do
--and that is why I manage to tie some "new" ones--
I say that your premise is hardly certain,
and your conclusion ("... which is why ...") a partial
non sequitur : by not seeing ... clearly, one might well
find oneself tying "new" ("unintended", but ...) knots
a-plenty!  (One of my jokes re How To ... : "just come
up with a complicated knot, and in trying to re-tie it
no doubt you'll go astray and end up with a *new knot* !")   ;D

Quote
the noble duty to always defend roo and go after me when you think you can,
like in this silly case
I think that we can see who's "going after" whom
all too clearly.  The silly case of repeatedly telling the
world who sees what how and why not and <repeat>!

(Now, we'll pause to see if you can find a "hinge" just
like that infamous one lurking in the z. in the case
where the hinged elements simply have a different
relation to each other --one, in fact, much more like
the hardware hinges I see (i.e., b & p, not q) !
--or, if you only see that Roo made a post that you
haven't attacked)


Quote
- because you would nt dare to say anything about my knots,
... : eventually they may be forgotten ! :) :) :) ) )
And I'll have to remind you that **I** have PILES of
"play ropes" tied up (literally) with my *own* (new) knots,
to which I've given scant time & attention (i.e., I've not
put ink to paper; I've not "publish"ed, as you exhort me
to do); your knots sit in good company, in this sense.
And it is all a bit overwhelming to get control of.
(So often, an effort to record this knot results not
in that, but in then producing --in tied-up, hard-now-to-find
play rope-- yet another *new* knot in need ... !   >:(  )

BUT, I think that I will get time to do a chunk of some
such recording.  (The benefit to delay is the chance, then,
to group knots per structure --older & newer.)  ((Another
benefit is that, given the delay and press of work to do,
one is more willing to discard knots, so maybe some more
chaff is tossed out.))


 ;)

xarax

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Re: "Lehman8" and "Zeppelin loop " - which is more difficult to untie ?
« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2015, 05:22:02 PM »
you understand less and less than I suppose you can and you will ...
Moi, aussi.

At last, something on which we agree ! :)

...by not seeing ... clearly, one might well find oneself tying "new" ("unintended", but ...) knots a-plenty!

   AHA ! THIS is why you do not tie ANY knot ! You see crystal-clearly ! :) :) :)  And I was wandering...
   This STUPID theory, that an ape can write what Shakespeare did, and a knot-troll ( like me ) may happen to tie some good knots, was, coincidentally, promoted in this Forum in the past, by guess whom ! :) ( However, I am not surprized by THIS coincidence...)
  So, I had tied all the "new" knots I did, because I tie "random knots", and, every some Xillion years, one of them happens to be good. OK. Now, tell me, Is THAT the best explanation you had managed to pull out of your sheave ? Perhaps it is time to start ( tying and ) trying more, again...
    However, yes, indeed, it may happen : Mobius - who admits he could nt see the difference between a Zeppelin and a Hunter s bend ( and THAT was where I was referring to, your brightness ) - had tied the most beautiful Mobius loop, which generations of knot tyers had missed !

 
   BUT, I think that I will get time to do a chunk of some such recording.

  I can only hope that you will, because I know something you do not : that you, too, you are not immortal.
This is not a knot.

Dan_Lehman

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Re: "Lehman8" and "Zeppelin loop " - which is more difficult to untie ?
« Reply #20 on: August 07, 2015, 07:24:19 PM »
Mobius - who admits he could nt see the difference between a Zeppelin and a Hunter s bend
( and THAT was where I was referring to, your brightness )
...
Please shed your own brightness on where Mobius
said ANYthing in this thread about "Hunter" ?!
(The computer search is pretty easy & quick,
and there is no such statement; only I brought
in that name, as part of a descripiton.)

So, you referred to nonexistent statement(s).

 :(

xarax

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Re: "Lehman8" and "Zeppelin loop" - which is more difficult to untie ?
« Reply #21 on: August 08, 2015, 12:47:53 AM »
   No, Mobius himself was referring to the "false Zeppelin" - replying to what YOU wrote ! :)
   Perhaps you think that there is ( and that you can describe it...) a difference between the structure of the Hunter s bend and the Hunter s-like structure you were talking about... To me, the important structural difference,  ( which has nothing to do with the good or not "balance" of a Zeppelin-like knot ) is the difference of how the first curve of each link of the bend is attached to each other. As I had mentioned MANY times in the past, when those first curves are parallel and not "hooked" to each other, we have Zeppelin-like bends - when they are hooked ( = interlinked directly, without an intermediate "pivot" ), we have Hunter-like bends. Of course, one can tie falsely tied Zeppelin-like bends, and falsely tied Hunter-like bends, but that is not the point I was talking about.
   ( To learn more about what a Zeppelin-like bend is, and about other Zeppelin-like bends, visit again some threads you may have forgotten... (1) - you may see what I mean ). 

I am now apprised of the surprising (IMO for Mobius) but otherwise seen in various places mistaken knot masquerading at the zeppelin--that more-like-SmitHunter's-structure.

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4090.0

P.S. What is the relevance of what dL is talking about, with the subject of this thread, only KnotGod knows...
       Of course, shifting the goalposts as far away from the "Lehman8" and the "Zeppelin loop" swamp as possible, is, perhaps, the wisest thing one can do... even if it is the ONLY thing he can do.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2015, 12:56:16 AM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

Mobius

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Re: "Lehman8" and "Zeppelin loop " - which is more difficult to untie ?
« Reply #22 on: August 08, 2015, 01:03:50 AM »
Mobius - who admits he could nt see the difference between a Zeppelin and a Hunter s bend
( and THAT was where I was referring to, your brightness )
...
Please shed your own brightness on where Mobius
said ANYthing in this thread about "Hunter" ?!
(The computer search is pretty easy & quick,
and there is no such statement; only I brought
in that name, as part of a descripiton.)

So, you referred to nonexistent statement(s).

 :(

The standing parts interlock directly with the smitHunter, wheras the Zeppelin does not. The smitHunter knot and the Zeppelin I know the difference and can recognise it. The 'false' Zeppelin I tied is a "b" "d" and the standing parts are not "hooked", I just was not careful enough forming the "q" and interchanged the roles of the standing end and the tail. My false Zeppelin collapses under load and jams at around 20% MBS, or less, in the trials I did with it.

Cheers,

mobius

xarax

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Re: "Lehman8" and "Zeppelin loop " - which is more difficult to untie ?
« Reply #23 on: August 08, 2015, 07:33:55 AM »
    I doubt that your "false Zeppelin" was the "falsely tied Hunter s bend", as you believe it was. An unstable knot, which becomes elongated and even can be untied by itself, does not jam ! ( Unless you had made it become "compact" - but then you would had spotted the mistake immediately ). It should had been an X-ed ( X=crossed tails ) or a "twisted" form of it, or even the Hunter s bend itself, which is known as an easily jamming bend.
    We had a long thread 4 years ago about the "falsely tied Hunter s bend" in this Forum, with dozens of pictures of all its "twisted" variations. (1)
   ( Of particular interest is the contribution by dL :) - about something ELSE, of course, as always ( about the Buttefly bend ...)

    1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3204.0
« Last Edit: August 08, 2015, 05:33:06 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

Mobius

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Re: "Lehman8" and "Zeppelin loop " - which is more difficult to untie ?
« Reply #24 on: August 08, 2015, 09:24:55 AM »
    I doubt that your "false Zeppelin" was the "falsely tied Hunter s bend", as you believe it was. Un unstable knot, which becomes elongated and even can be untied by itself, does not jam ! ( Unless you had made it become "compact" - but then you would had spotted the mistake immediately ). It should had been an X-ed ( X=crossed tails ) or a "twisted" form of it, or even the Hunter s bend itself, which is known as an easily jamming bend.
    We had a long thread 4 years ago about the "falsely tied Hunter s bend" in this Forum, with dozens of pictures of all its "twisted" variations. (1)
   ( Of particular interest is the contribution by dL :) - about something ELSE, of course, as always ( about the Buttefly bend ...)

    1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3204.0

Thank you xarax.

The knot I tied I consider to be a failed Zeppelin rather than a failed smitHunter, however the knot is the same as the one you show on your link and describe in that link as "so the whole bend works more like a Zeppelin bend, than a genuine Hunter s bend, i.e. it is a kind of rope made hinge" . The hinge part of it and the non-hooked standing parts led me astray.

Below are some trial images of this 'false' Zeppelin. I snugged the knot as tight as I could by hand before load. The rope material I am trialling in these images is a 6mm PE/PP marine grade blend rated at 630kg MBS. The 2nd image is at only 10% MBS and the knot is already not going too well. The last image is at 20% MBS (about 125 kg) and the knot is completely collapsed and is jammed solid.

Cheers,

mobius

xarax

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Re: "Lehman8" and "Zeppelin loop " - which is more difficult to untie ?
« Reply #25 on: August 08, 2015, 09:54:15 AM »
   1. Indeed, the name of this knot should had better been "false Zeppelin bend" than "Falsely tied Hunter s bend" - but I had found the name, which existed before my time, and so I had left it as it was.
   2. I had never loaded the "false Zeppelin" / "falsely tied Hunter s bend" so heavily, to see if it would become compact by itself, or remain "flattened" so I did nt know that it could ! ! I was under the ( false, as you show ) impression that, when it will be loaded, it will be elongated ( as it happens in your second picture ) and then it will slide along the "pivot" and it will be untied - but that it will not jam. Therefore I had not believed that this was the knot you had tied. However, this may had been helped by the fact that I never pull the tails of the Zeppelin bend : it is one of the bends that, after you form and set it up, it is self-dressing - moreover, like the Ashley s bend, during tightening it does not "consume" its tails ( the Hunter s and the Butterfly s bend do ). It seems that if you pull it snag in the first place, as you did, you may help it to go all the way to the compact, spherical form, without been elongated very much.
   3. Now, if you simply cross the tails of this bend ( i.e., tie the X=crossed tails variation ), then yes, it remains more stable and 'flat", and it does not become more elongated, even if its tails are not pulled at all - and so I supposed that you may had tied the X-ed version - which looks like the Zeppelin bend, indeed, and may be mistakenly seen so ( the compact form, shown in the third picture, is so different, I could nt believe that it was mistakenly seen as the Zeppelin bend ! )
   4. When / if this bend reaches the compact / spherical form you show in your third picture, it would be anticipated that it will jam easily - because it is not much different from the Hunter s bend, which does jam easily, indeed. I could nt imagine you had tied this bend, and thought that you had tied a Zeppelin bend ! That is why I was joking with dL s comments. Of course, in the end I was right, because I know what his real motive was : just push the goalpost of the difficult-to-untie bends which were supposed to be the subject of this thread a little further ! :) :)
   
« Last Edit: August 08, 2015, 06:19:56 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

xarax

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Re: "Lehman8" and "Zeppelin loop " - which is more difficult to untie ?
« Reply #26 on: August 08, 2015, 05:45:42 PM »
... if you can find a "hinge" just like that infamous one lurking in the z. in the case where the hinged elements simply have a different relation to each other --one, in fact, much more like the hardware hinges I see (i.e., b & p, not q) !

   The X-ed "falsely tied Hunter s bend", is such a stable "b & p" Zeppelin-like bend - because the robustness offered by the Xed=crossed tails enables it to regain some of the lost balance, due to the unfavourable alignment of the Standing Parts of the two links.
   However, another method is simply to use, as the leaves of the hinge, one overhand knot link  and one fig.8 knot link. The bend becomes asymmetric, but very stable. ( Now, which end you should collar, in order to form the fig.8 link, is something you, too, can find out... :) ).
« Last Edit: August 08, 2015, 06:21:18 PM by xarax »
This is not a knot.

agent_smith

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Re: "Lehman8" and "Zeppelin loop " - which is more difficult to untie ?
« Reply #27 on: August 09, 2015, 03:12:29 AM »
And here are some half decent images to assist with the discussion on topology.

I am slowly building towards another paper on 'end-to-end-joining-knots' (ie bends). This is just a sample of some photos showing topology.

I also have a half decent photo of the SmitHunter (#1425A) with crossed tails X.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2015, 03:15:37 AM by agent_smith »

agent_smith

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Re: "Lehman8" and "Zeppelin loop " - which is more difficult to untie ?
« Reply #28 on: August 09, 2015, 03:20:54 AM »
Some photos of SmitHunter #1425A

...and also the X version with crossed tails (which seems to be jam resistant).

Mobius

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Re: "Lehman8" and "Zeppelin loop " - which is more difficult to untie ?
« Reply #29 on: August 09, 2015, 04:27:12 AM »
Some photos of SmitHunter #1425A

...and also the X version with crossed tails (which seems to be jam resistant).

I believe it is jam resistant. I was quite excited to 'discover' this knot for myself a few weeks ago. After asking Mark and Dan about it in private I found out that Asher had beaten us all to it ☺

I called the knot 'Infinity' at the time. It seems like a very good bend so it deserves a good name. I have yet to do more trials (this time in larger 6mm PE/PP ), however you can see what I did here http://tinyurl.com/infinitybend if you wish.

Cheers,

mobius
« Last Edit: August 09, 2015, 07:15:03 AM by mobius »

 

anything