Author Topic: Ashley knot security tester  (Read 14118 times)

Tangled

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Ashley knot security tester
« on: August 10, 2015, 10:45:24 PM »
With all the talk about the properties of the many bowline variants, I'm curious if anybody has built  an Ashley knot security tester (ABok#63, page 16), or something of a similiar nature.  If so, what weight, height of drops, and cord did you use? 

I am very curious to see how various knots would perform with commonly available utility cordage.  By this I mean the braided nylon rope sold at most hardware and truck rental places, 550 cord, polypropelene truck rope, foam core diamond braid, &c.  IIRC, Ashley used Mohair yarn for his testing, which is a very different animal then what most of us use today..

"One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions."
―Rear Admiral Grace Hopper, USN
« Last Edit: August 10, 2015, 10:47:12 PM by Tangled »

roo

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Re: Ashley knot security tester
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2015, 01:44:15 AM »
With all the talk about the properties of the many bowline variants, I'm curious if anybody has built  an Ashley knot security tester (ABok#63, page 16), or something of a similiar nature.  If so, what weight, height of drops, and cord did you use? 

I find that in real life use, knots in rope tend to have the most difficulty staying tied when they are subject to slack shaking rather than weight drops.
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Tangled

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Re: Ashley knot security tester
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2015, 03:31:15 AM »
Are you talking about a "Flapping in the wind" type loadcase?

roo

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Re: Ashley knot security tester
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2015, 04:41:05 AM »
Are you talking about a "Flapping in the wind" type loadcase?
Such motion could come from wind, but it can also be human or wave generated.
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Dan_Lehman

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Re: Ashley knot security tester
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2015, 07:47:21 AM »
Quote
IIRC, Ashley used Mohair yarn for his testing,
which is a very different animal then what most of us use today..
Recall further that he used this because he was tasked
to find knots that worked in it --not that he thought it
somehow a reasonable material for knots testing.  It
should be pointed out that *knots* as abstract entities
lack physical properties, and one should be thinking of
"<this_material knotted>" in considering physical aspects.

As for "flapping in the wind", that even puts more load
on a knot than what might be of concern w/security.
I have various small cords attached to my keys cord
and I find that most knots work loose in my pocket,
with a notable exception being the zeppelin-knotted
ends of a small binding cord (a hollow braid of nylon),
where the tails are minimally short and *blossomed*
so that they cannot be pushed and also serve to some
degree qua stoppers --that end-2-end knot has been
tied for years, even decade(s)?! !!  (But another such
knot tied in ends of 3/16" solid braid nylon cord on this
collection of stuff in my pocket was pretty quickly too
loose!  (Moderately tightened grapevine bends have
loosened, also.)

I've mused about some run-'em-up-the-flagpole testing
of security in a breeze, or using vibrations of some
machine (washer?); the test would largely be one of
Pass/Fail : begin and run it continuously for a period
and see what's still tied when it's over.


--dl*
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« Last Edit: September 15, 2015, 06:57:00 PM by Dan_Lehman »

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Ashley knot security tester
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2015, 07:18:53 PM »
using vibrations of some machine (washer?);

   ! ! :) :) Good idea.
   You should attach the knot to the limbs of a small bow,
which will keep the ends tensioned,
and see if it will come out in one piece after the washing ( and drying ! )... :)
But I don't want the ends tensioned --I want to test
"slack security", resistance to shaking/jostling/idle_loosening.

And so my thought re the machine was to have a series
of knotted specimens tied to a rigid pole, dangling, and
being shaken by the machine's vibrations transferred
via the pole (or, via flag-shaken line to which specimens
are attached, similarly --but where to put one's monetary
tokens to generate a breeze?!   :P  ).

Hmmm, thinking of my in-the-pocket non-testing but
effectively a sort of testing ... , I can thus suggest that
one has a bag of speciments, perhaps also weighted balls,
that one repeatedly lets roll down a slope
--the point being
to mimic my in-the-pocket circumstance, and to use what
CAN be depended upon --a slope (which won't change angle,
alter gravity, or move away, time to time!).  The "weighted"
(better, maybe, "weighty" ?) balls are there to help ensure
that this bag o' knots does roll down the slope, while also
providing some additional "jostling" effect internally?
(maybe just one old bowling ball!).

And grading would be pretty coarse --as befits this quite
non-finely-graduated test-- : do the knots stay tied?
--or loosen but only up to a point?  --or only in some
of the materials?  --... some of the settings?  et cetera.

[Currently, I'm awarding myself Bright Idea of the Week for this!]
[[note : award precedes actual attempt to DO ... ! ]]
 :)


--dl*
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Tangled

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Re: Ashley knot security tester
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2015, 09:21:52 PM »
If you've got a steady breeze, just tying the knot in the middle of a lead and running it up a flagpole or hanging it off a clothesline might do the trick.  Figure one knot per lead, and multiple leads per test.  If you don't have a breeze, you can always run a bungee across the interior of your car trunk, tie the leads onto that, and check the knots after a commuting for a few days. 

As far as knots staying put long term, in the days or yore, I believe that the knots were painted with pine tar.  I fix them by either sewing (sailmaker's whipping), Serving (bowstring serving), Saturating (diluted PVA glue), or sticking (injecting glue into the heart of the knot). 

EDIT: If you want to use a washing maching or dryer, just stick everything into a mesh delicates bag and toss it into with the next load.  No jigs required.  Just beware of color bleeding.

http://www.amazon.com/Mesh-Lingerie-Delicates-Wash-Bag/dp/B0001E83AE

Tossing a bag full of paracord in a hot water load is fairly common way to prep it (pre-shrink and soften) for outdoor use.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2015, 09:29:26 PM by Tangled »

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Ashley knot security tester
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2015, 05:55:46 PM »
There is going to be a difference in knot-loosening (or not)
between the in-the-pockets-like full slackness and just
lightly weighted (the material ends have mass) ropes
somehow being tensioned sufficiently to be shaken
--in which case, I can't see the S.Parts of such knots
ever working their way into the knot as part of
the loosening, which can occur with the other method.
And, so, what does one want to test?
  (--perhaps both, and more : full loading has shown lack
   of security in common kernmantle ropes & knots (e.g.,
   the Dave Richards testing in which sheet bend /fisherman's knot
   joints showed some slippage at moderately high loads!)!)

Dragging across a surface might be a condition that is deemed
*practical* in terms of modeling some realities of use, where
there is not only variable forces upon the knots but also the
rubbing of surfaces.

(I have been pretty surprised that fairly tightly set grapevine
and other knots have loosened in my pocket --not real quickly,
but, still, after not so long.  (Not testing, I didn't note the date
of the tying vs. finding the knot(s) loose.)


--dl*
====

Tangled

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Re: Ashley knot security tester
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2015, 03:26:40 AM »
I tied a loop of two parallel paracord strands joined at intervals with an Alpine Butterfly Bend, Sheet Bend, Double Sheet Bend, Sheet Bend and a Half Hitch, Carrick Bend (uncapsized), Figure 8  Follow Through, and an Overhand Follow Through.  I closed it with glued Grapevines.  I marked each chord where it entered the knots and hung it in my SUV.  Nice, busy ride on most streets guaranteed to rattle loose anything not under tension.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2015, 03:28:50 AM by Tangled »

Mobius

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Re: Ashley knot security tester
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2015, 10:08:49 AM »
What I call the "Jiggle Test" might be useful. Shown here: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ayKyc8E_3x-jGli252wuiAmlmXe3bJu2g8lJzl_eSeI is just my personal way of looking at 'slack' knot security. Shaking a knot to see whether it holds form is not new, however I decided to at least somewhat formalise what knots are worthy of my further investigation. i.e. a knot that falls apart after a couple of shakes in my trial does not excite me very much ;) My link is just part of my knot diary, take from it what you will.

Of course, I am using 11mm kernmantle as my benchmark and I fully appreciate that other materials will produce different results. Take that as you will, however you may wish to do your own informal trials for a particular rope and knot. Soft rope is not a good choice IMO.

Cheers,

mobius.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2015, 10:57:18 AM by mobius »

Urfin

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Re: Ashley knot security tester
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2015, 01:59:37 PM »
I have various small cords attached to my keys cord
and I find that most knots work loose in my pocket,
with a notable exception being the zeppelin-knotted
ends of a small binding cord (a hollow braid of nylon),
where the tails are minimally short and *blossomed*
so that they cannot be pushed and also serve to some
degree qua stoppers --that end-2-end knot has been
tied for years, even decade(s)?! !!  (But another such
knot tied in ends of 3/16" solid braid nylon cord on this
collection of stuff in my pocket was pretty quickly too
loose!

I've done some similar unscientific experimentation by carrying some knotted cords in my pocket too and I used to tie the ends with a Zeppelin bend. It was regularly getting undone, so I got tired of it and switched to Vice Versa bend and had no problem since. It is a 3mm kernmantle cord, rather firm and usually it holds knots rather well. This experience made me always wary of the Zeppelin and it was always surprising to see people being so fond of it and describing it as secure. It never occurred to me that it'll work better in a different material, thank you for that idea, it clears some confusion.

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Ashley knot security tester
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2015, 07:04:52 PM »
If you "switch" to an even more complex/convoluted bend
( for example, if you add two half hitches to the Tail Ends of ANY bend you wish...)
 your knot will pass the test of the [...]
Noope, if you "secure" further by insecure means,
you will often have still an insecure structure --i.p.,
those half-hitches will loosen and then too the rest
of the structure, in many cases.  (Sometimes, there
might be some benefit to a conglomerate; YMMV.)

I suspect that the vice versa worked -as much as it did
(but for how long?!)-- because it could be tightened to jam,
unlike the z. which has non-jamming as a key feature!
In my pocket knotting, though, I found even the strangle
components of the grapevine bend to loosen, although
pretty *firmly* set --no, I didn't put huge setting forces
on them, as that can set-jam many knots, and I think that
a "secure" one should work w/o such great setting forces.


--dl*
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Urfin

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Re: Ashley knot security tester
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2015, 04:38:18 PM »
If THIS experience made you "ALWAYS" wary about the "security" of the Zeppelin bend :) , perhaps you are who is still a little confused about what is a "secure" knot...

Well, I'm here to learn. Do you mean that security of the knot is defined only as security when loaded? I probably misused the term, what I meant is the general ability to withstand random tugs, rubs, and pushes. Robustness?

Mobius

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Re: Ashley knot security tester
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2015, 06:33:13 AM »
If THIS experience made you "ALWAYS" wary about the "security" of the Zeppelin bend :) , perhaps you are who is still a little confused about what is a "secure" knot...

Well, I'm here to learn. Do you mean that security of the knot is defined only as security when loaded? I probably misused the term, what I meant is the general ability to withstand random tugs, rubs, and pushes. Robustness?

A knot's slack security (robustness) is very important. It is a part of what defines the overall security of the knot. There are plenty of knots (bends, loops, adjustable-loops) that perform well in the areas of being easy-to-tie, non-jamming and do not fall apart the moment you jiggle the rope with no load. BTW, just because a loop is 'adjustable' does not mean that you have to live with it falling apart easily :)

Tying a knot and then at least 'jiggling' it to see whether it holds together is a must for me and a prerequisite quality as far as I am concerned.
 
Cheers,

mobius.


Mobius

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Re: Ashley knot security tester
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2015, 10:22:36 AM »
   "Jiggle" a not-loaded Gleipnir, and see is it "holds together" or "falls apart" ....
    Then, do the same on a not-loaded bowline. After you will dismiss those two great knots, you will probably be forced to discover by yourself that there are great knots which are "holding together" only with the help of the friction generated by some tensioned, due to the load itself, segments of their nubs, not by any pre-tensioned segments, due to the pull of the ends of their nubs by the knot tyer ( during a post-dressing, pre-tensioning phase, as it happens in the case of the "tight hitches" ).
    Of course, you can re-define "security" as you wish - and live happily all your life believing, deep in your heart, in the "practicality" of your definition. People do this all the time, and in things m u c h more important than knots : they believe that airplanes are not secure means of transportation, vaccines are not secure means of preventing contagious diseases, the 13th floors are dangerous, e.t.c - and many of them also believe that we should better consult an astrologist before we dare to attempt anything of those "dangerous" things. So, I am sure that there are some people who believe that "secure" knots are only the over-tangled knots, or the jammed knots - or, better, the glued knots, and they are happy to use only such knots. One thing is sure : they will NOT die because any of their knots will be released due to "giggling" ! :)

   P.S. I deliberately have not referred to the Blackwall hitch, because I do not know if it can even be considered as a "knot", if/when/while it is not loaded.

More condescending rubbish spills from the xarax's mouth. I am accused of redefining knot "security" by talking about 'slack security' and actually saying I think it is important. What a heretic I am  ::)  I find xarax's astrological', 'vaccine', 'glued knots' argument is one of the most pitiful I have ever seen from him. Unfortunately, xarax gets away with saying this type of insulting nonsense time after time (after year), it is the rest of us who must be careful what we say.

You are welcome to think about slack security for yourself. Ask yourself this, if we are so happy with the performance of a standard Bowline (well known for it's slack security issues) why are there thousands of posts about trying to improve it? The Bowline or even Double Bowline do not pass the "jiggle" test, some (if not most) of the bowlines now proposed for serious consideration (peer review) will exhibit a number of fine qualities, slack security being one of them is almost a given.

Cheers,

mobius


 

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