Author Topic: Improved Englishman s knot (B) ( improved thread (E) :) )  (Read 2579 times)


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Improved Englishman s knot (B) ( improved thread (E) :) )
« on: August 12, 2015, 04:09:57 AM »
   In our effort to find a more symmetric inline/TIB single loop, instead of re-harnessing the Harness loop (1), we can improve the improved Englishman s knot ( ABoK#1039 /#1040 /#1041 ) :) :). There are two ways to tie this loop : if the knot tied on the one end/leg is an overhand knot and on the other an underhand knot, the result is different from the knot shown by Ashley - but I believe it is also a nice and interesting knot. Start from the mirror-symmetric arrangement of the two knots as shown in the third attached picture, pull their ends to make them slide them towards each other, and, at the end, twist the eye 90 degrees more.
    ( One may argue that this loop is "similar" to ABoK#1022. Noope - the nub of ABoK#1022 is identical to the nub of ABoK#1039 - the two overhand knots ( or the two underhand knots - because, in those two knots, they are both overhand or both underhand ) "kiss" each other the same way. The knot shown in this thread is different than the ABoK#1039, so it can not be less different = more similar ( or even "very similar"(sic) :) ) than the AB0K#1022. Not only the topology, but also the geometry ( the dressing ), are different - but this ( how "different" or not from ABoK#1039 and ABoK#1022 it is ) is probably the least interesting thing in this knot !   
   Also, it is different from ABoK#1021, which is NOT an inline loop, in either of its two variations, shown in (*)( i.e., it is not able to remain tied, without being greatly deformed, in the middle of a tensioned line, even if/when/while the eye of the loop is not loaded ). ABoK#1408.5 is an inline loop (2), but it is not TIB.

I like 1048, shakehand loop.. Easy and quick.

   Not an in-line loop either. Do not confuse inline loops with TIB end-of-line loops which may be EEL ( either end loadable ).
  There are a few knots which are both ( the Linfit loop, by O.Nutall, for example ). Their ends can point to one or to opposite directions, and yet they can bear load, without their nubs become disfigured / be transformed to something else. If we do not care about such a transformation, the Butterfly loop is fine, because now we know the beautiful form it takes when it is loaded as an EEL end-of-line loop ( the Mobius loop ).

   What is an "inline loop" ? First, as its name suggests, a loop that is tied in a "line" : "line" means here a straight line, of course, and not a rope - simply because all loops ( and, for that matter, all knots...) are tied in a line=rope !  And why is this line straight ? Because it is tensioned by both sides - otherwise we would had been talking about an "end-of-line loop" ( where "end" would mean the unloaded end, irrespectively of how long it is ).
    Therefore, the VERY FIRST thing an "inline loop" should be able to do, is to remain in place, and in one piece, when both ends are heavily loaded - or, even when they were not heavily loaded initially, but became heavily loaded afterwards, by a heavy weight hanged from the loop, and dragging it downwards. So, the eye of an inline loop loop may be loaded or not - but the nub of the loop should be able to withstand a heavy pull from both ends of the line, even if/when/while its eye is not loaded.
    See, for example how the ABoK#1021 behaves (*), if its two ends are loaded, but its eye is not  ( ABoK#1021 is NOT an inline loop, and Ashley indicates this : he had not included it in the section of his chapter about single loops where he presents the inline loops ( ABoK#1049-#1056 - with the exception of the difficult-to-dress-properly ABoK#1059, which can also/better be tied as an end-of-line loop ( ABoK#1045)). The half hitch of the one side of the ABoK#1021 starts to distant itself from the overhand knot of the other - and knotGod knows where this movement will stop - IF it will... Now, one can argue that, if the loop is also loaded, the pair of the tensioned, now, eyelegs will work as a stiff toggle, and will keep the knot in one piece, and in one place - but we can not suppose that we will have this loop loaded ( and loaded adequately, so this toggle will manage to remain perpendicular to the axis of loading ) at all times ! An inline loop should work as a stable "anchor", on a more or less tensioned line, and serve as a point of this line from which we can hang a weight when we will want it - but it should be able to remain there, safely knotted, even if/when/while the weight/load has not yet been attached, or has been removed.
   There is a number of inline loops which would work fine when they are formed on a vertical line, and their eye is loaded also vertically, by a hanged weight - but which will not work at all if they are placed upside down. Of course, we would love to have an inline loop which would be able to work as an either-end-of-line loop, or even as a both-ends-of-line loop - and the Butterfly loop is such a knot. Loaded by the one or both its ends, it takes the form of the beautiful Mobius loop, discovered only recently !
   It is a quite simple thing to see which loops are end-of-line loops ( one-end, either-end or both-ends ), but should be deformed / disfigured, and become geometrically and structurally very different knots, in order to become inline loops. By the same token, it is quite easy to see which loops are inline loops, but can also serve as end-line loops - although the most well known of all, the Butterfly loop, revealed its beautiful end-of-line form 100, almost, years after its inline form ! So, I guess that it is an issue which is not clarified yet. Then, there are more subtle complications : as WHICH end of the line this inline loop works better ? Is it "directional" ( as dL says his inline loop is ), or not ?
   It is not required from one to be a rocket scientist in order to be able to see that the Englishman s knot ( ABoK#1039 ), or its in-line variation shown in this thread, can NOT serve as either-end-of-line or as both-ends-of-line loops...   
   Recently, I had presented such an inline loop, at :
   However, this loop, too, will be deformed significantly if it is loaded by the one of its ends, so it may be considered as a "directional" inline loop.
   ( I have not mentioned another property the inline loops should better have : be TIB. It would be a nuisance to tie in-the-end a middle line ( inline or not ) loop, and having to tuck or untuck the looong end all the way each time you tie or untie the knot. However, if we do not care about a "relic" overhand knot or fig.8 knot being permanently tied in the middle of the line, we can use, as an inline loop, the ABoK#1408, or the ABoK#1408.5, shown by Zoranz (1).

   (*) My theory about the ABoK#1021 is that, if one insists to use it as an inline loop, he should tie the half hitch ( which collars the pair of the eyelegs "lower" than the overhand knot ) the other way - it seems that variation is a more balanced/stable knot, although it is still mot able to remain in one piece if the line is tensioned, and its eye is not properly / adequately loaded.
   I had shown pictures of all those loops in the looong thread about the Trucker s hitch - but there the loop was meant to be directional :
« Last Edit: August 12, 2015, 07:54:02 AM by xarax »
This is not a knot.