A shifting knot (150K worth of pics)

[V.V.V.V.V.]

First off, let me apologize for the amount of pictures.  I was chided abit in a previous thread for posting too many large pics, so I have downsized them and put a warning in the subject.

So here's how to make what I have...

Start it like a zeppelin bend except interlock it and leave both ends on top.  also make sure the end on the right comes from underneath.


Pull the end on the right up through the middle and wrap it around the end coming from the left side.


Do the same for the other side.  Kinda looks like a star of david if you squint just right...


Pull it tight and you have a nice big (nearly) symmetrical ball of a bend.


and...


So, thats the main knot.  It doesn't seem to jam.  You can pull the end loops down and if those are difficult you can always pull the tails and shift it (shift #1) into what looks like a decorative...something, which also looks stable and is easier to pull apart.  Now if you take the main knot (unshifted) and just take the tail ends out (shift #2), you get this:


which can be tied independantly like this:


I'm still new at this, but to me that looks like some sort of interlocked griefknot/whatnot  (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=525.0 -- WARNING, MORE PICS!) in it's stable condition.  This one, however, doesn't seem to have an unstable condition.  But if you pull on the ends, you get yet another knot (shift #3) that looks similar to a square knot (actual square, not reef) that also looks stable:


Again, I apologize for the number of pics.  I just find this all so fascinating     So, are these related knots?  Did I cheat by pulling the tails out to create a totally separate knot?  What do I have here?

[Willeke]

Can someone help me please, in this post as in the former one using the same picture-host, I do not get the pictures.
I have tried to allow pop-ups, but they do not come forward.

Are there more people who have the same problem?
Has someone found how to solve this problem?

Willeke

[V.V.V.V.V.]

Can someone help me please, in this post as in the former one using the same picture-host, I do not get the pictures.
I have tried to allow pop-ups, but they do not come forward.

Are there more people who have the same problem?
Has someone found how to solve this problem?

Willeke

I sent you a PM

[V.V.V.V.V.]

Actually it just occurred to me that if you pull on the standing ends after the first shift, you have another stable shift.  I'll call that one shift #1A since i already used the other numbers.  Chalk one up to not paying attention

[DerekSmith]

Can someone help me please, in this post as in the former one using the same picture-host, I do not get the pictures.
I have tried to allow pop-ups, but they do not come forward.

Are there more people who have the same problem?
Has someone found how to solve this problem?

Willeke

Hi Willeke,

In this post and the previous, I have no problem seeing the images.  I use Firefox with NoScript and am on Pipex broadband.

Derek

[Andre van der Salm]

I too can't see the pictures and I use Opera as my browser program

André

[Mike]

V⁵,  Your first picture shows them interlocking, but the second picture does not.

[Znex]

Can someone help me please, in this post as in the former one using the same picture-host, I do not get the pictures.
I have tried to allow pop-ups, but they do not come forward.

Are there more people who have the same problem?
Has someone found how to solve this problem?

Willeke

You might try this... right click over image location, select <Properties>, select and copy the listed URL, open new browser window, paste into the Address of your browser, select <GO>, go back to the original forum post and reload. This sometimes gets the link working for the rest of the pictures on the page.

You can also try (if you haven't already) right clicking on the image location and select <Show Picture>.

Mark

[Willeke]

Thanks for your tips Mark, but no help, still no pictures.

Willeke

PS, With the new host I can see the pictures!!

[V.V.V.V.V.]

Ok, i rehosted the pictures on a different service, hopefully that will fix the problem (and not make more). 

Now then...

V⁵,  Your first picture shows them interlocking, but the second picture does not.

That is a function of the wrapping I described.  If my instructions are unclear (and they may be, but it makes sense to me), then the third picture shows the wrapping completed and you can copy that.  Alternatively, you can make exactly what the second picture shows and take the working end out of the bottom to shift it back to what the first pic shows.  I hope that makes sense...

[DerekSmith]

V⁵,  Your first picture shows them interlocking, but the second picture does not.

That is a function of the wrapping I described.  If my instructions are unclear (and they may be, but it makes sense to me), then the third picture shows the wrapping completed and you can copy that.  Alternatively, you can make exactly what the second picture shows and take the working end out of the bottom to shift it back to what the first pic shows.  I hope that makes sense...

Sorry V5,  I must be being totally thick, because no, this does not make sense to me.  How can you have a tying sequence when pics 1 and 2 cannot follow on one from the other?  I can recreate pic 3 and it makes up to a rather strong and safe looking knot (I haven't tested it at all yet), but then I get lost as to your other instructions to morph the knot.

Could you take me through the individual steps a little more slowly and with a bit more detail, for example - why should I need to "Alternatively, you can make exactly what the second picture shows and take the working end out of the bottom to shift it back to what the first pic shows.", when I presumably need to progress through the tying sequence in the order of 1 - 2 - 3 etc?

I am sure I will 'get it' eventually, I must be on a slow day

[V.V.V.V.V.]

Ok, so here's an alternate (better?) pic 2 that is hopefully more clear. 

I can recreate pic 3 and it makes up to a rather strong and safe looking knot (I haven't tested it at all yet), but then I get lost as to your other instructions to morph the knot.

Well, except for the shift where you take the tails out, morphing the knot comes down to pulling on the working ends after the knot is set.  But as to taking the tails out, the following pic should explain it.  You take the working end (pointed to in green) and take it out of that one layer, then do the same on the other side.  it should match the pic of the new knot (pic 6) when tightened up. 

Could you take me through the individual steps a little more slowly and with a bit more detail, for example - why should I need to "Alternatively, you can make exactly what the second picture shows and take the working end out of the bottom to shift it back to what the first pic shows.", when I presumably need to progress through the tying sequence in the order of 1 - 2 - 3 etc?

Sorry about confusion, the idea with this was to reset the knot to the beginning so that the tier (Mike, i think it was) could see how it started, to maybe make it abit easier to understand.  Hopefully the new pic will clear that up.  Damn, i wish i could post videos...

[Dan_Lehman]

V⁵,  Your first picture shows them interlocking, but the second picture does not.
...
How can you have a tying sequence when pics 1 and 2 cannot follow on one from the other?

Derek, I'd the same objection on first glance, but what happens (well, one can take this
perspecitve, anyway) is that the interlocked loop's lower-right edge is pulled in that
direction under the opposite rope for the end-tuck, and in so doing, the other end
swings towards a diagonal upper-left orientation, and gives the un-interlocked look!
Or, to put it another way, were they indeed not interlocking, you'd have to specify the
tuck of the end pointing up&leftwards.

The simpler knot that is presented following the first is what Harry Asher named
"Corrick", and is #1451 in ABOK ("Ashley").  --doesn't look strong to me
(or to Ashley), as the SParts come to a hard u-turn against each other.

--dl*
====

[DerekSmith]

Well, except for the shift where you take the tails out, morphing the knot comes down to pulling on the working ends after the knot is set.  But as to taking the tails out, the following pic should explain it.  You take the working end (pointed to in green) and take it out of that one layer, then do the same on the other side.  it should match the pic of the new knot (pic 6) when tightened up. 

Could you explain what you mean by "Taking the tails out" - are you partially undoing the knot?

Derek

[V.V.V.V.V.]

Derek, I'd the same objection on first glance, but what happens (well, one can take this
perspecitve, anyway) is that the interlocked loop's lower-right edge is pulled in that
direction under the opposite rope for the end-tuck, and in so doing, the other end
swings towards a diagonal upper-left orientation, and gives the un-interlocked look!
Or, to put it another way, were they indeed not interlocking, you'd have to specify the
tuck of the end pointing up&leftwards.

Yes, exactly.

Could you explain what you mean by "Taking the tails out" - are you partially undoing the knot?

yes