Author Topic: Knot Bio: Zeppelin bend  (Read 28797 times)

SS369

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Re: Knot Bio: Zeppelin bend
« Reply #45 on: November 06, 2017, 10:44:27 PM »
Good day Mark.

I've not unearthed any history other than what has been proffered by others, but have have a tying method to offer.

Most tying methods show a p&q, etc., the standing parts heading in opposite directions, arrangement which seems to need to lay upon something. My method keeps it out of the dirt.

I tie the Z bend with both ropes held in one hand (s-parts), working ends on the same side. Take one end and tie an overhand around both s-parts. Then take the remaining working end, go behind its own sp and between both s-parts to dive through the overhand the opposite direction of the first working end.

Maybe a picture will say it better. Here's the layout.

SS

roo

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Re: Knot Bio: Zeppelin bend
« Reply #46 on: November 06, 2017, 10:53:31 PM »
Most tying methods show a b&q, etc., the standing parts heading in opposite directions, arrangement which seems to need to lay upon something. My method keeps it out of the dirt.
???
The b&q method usually requires two hands, but it certainly doesn't require laying the rope down on the dirt or any other surface.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0a8TneP51Y
« Last Edit: November 06, 2017, 11:01:14 PM by roo »
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SS369

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Re: Knot Bio: Zeppelin bend
« Reply #47 on: November 06, 2017, 11:12:58 PM »
My method keeps it out of the dirt.

Just a figure of speech.  But, there could be some truth to it.
The method I've offered allows for easy tying with gloves or cold hands.
Thanks for the video.

SS

agent_smith

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Re: Knot Bio: Zeppelin bend
« Reply #48 on: November 07, 2017, 04:37:08 AM »
New version uploaded...

VER 0.8b (07 NOV 2017) is uploaded.

Link to page: http://www.paci.com.au/knots.php (at #4 in the table)

Only small incremental improvements...

Changelog:
[ ] page 1: further enhancements to 'anatomy' (per Xarax) - reaching limit of what can be shown with current image. Will take photo from different angle so another anatomy image can be shown.
[ ] page 8: added another variant of the Zeppelin bend
[ ] page 9: Added date for Roos Zeppelin eye knot (March 2003)
[ ] page 10: some new content and some enhancements to text descriptions of tying methods
[ ] page 13: new content...covering knot 'efficiency' - work in progress


...

Still need a copy of that darn 1967 caving newsletter from Bob Thrun!

Mark G

siriuso

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Re: Knot Bio: Zeppelin bend
« Reply #49 on: November 07, 2017, 06:17:48 AM »
Hi SS369, I can not tie ZB by following your photo. Please post again. I love to try.

yChan

agent_smith

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Re: Knot Bio: Zeppelin bend
« Reply #50 on: November 07, 2017, 09:20:21 AM »
New version uploaded...

VER 0.9 (07 NOV 2017) is uploaded.

Link to page: http://www.paci.com.au/knots.php (at #4 in the table)

Paper is taking shape nicely...with the addition of response to load - the planned design/structure is virtually complete (just need to work on content).

Changelog:
[ ] page 9: added tying method for zeppelin eye knot
[ ] page 13: corrections made - kN figures advanced for some knot jamming thresholds
[ ] page 14: new content (response to load...work in progress)


Mark G
« Last Edit: November 07, 2017, 09:22:40 AM by agent_smith »

SS369

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Re: Knot Bio: Zeppelin bend
« Reply #51 on: November 07, 2017, 03:04:23 PM »
Hi SS369, I can not tie ZB by following your photo. Please post again. I love to try.

yChan

Here's a photo tying sequence.

SS
« Last Edit: November 07, 2017, 09:25:11 PM by SS369 »

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Knot Bio: Zeppelin bend
« Reply #52 on: November 07, 2017, 09:06:50 PM »
All of these whiz-bang-both-ends-at-once tying methods
are too clever by half, and go some ways to obscure the
differences among these related interlocked-overhands
knots.
.:.  IMO, best to show ONE end tied (fully) into an overhand
AND THEN the other reeved into it appropriate (to whichever
of these knots one desires).  Pretty much, once the initial
insertion & U[turn of the 2nd end into the knotted first is made,
for the zeppelin, then the making of a symmetric completion
dictates the rest of the tying.  Why keep things obscured in some
whiz-bang (but only after some tedious care in setting up!) tying]
method, like the bowline's been obscured by showing it
from the wrong side?

(Yes, Roo, it is a stretch, I admit, to calling your tying all
 that I just vented; but, still, I prefer for ALL of these ...
 to share a common tie-the-one-side beginning and
 then to take their distinct paths.  The knotted differences
 vs. the tying differences are better driven home, IMO.)


--dl*
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Dan_Lehman

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Re: Knot Bio: Zeppelin bend
« Reply #53 on: November 07, 2017, 09:21:57 PM »
But what I really need to find is anything on the zeppelin bend that pre-dates the Jan 1976 'Boating' magazine article authored by Lee and Bob Payne.
The earliest known published information I have is this Jan 1976 article.

Do you know if there is anything that pre-dates that Jan 1976 article?\
If yes, I would like to know about it :)
...
VOICI!  (Very sadly, by the now --2017-02-07-- *late* Bob THRUN.

 http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=983.msg6685#msg6685
Quote
My favorite bend is the Rosendahl Bend because I re-invented it and published it in 1967.
I published in a local caving club newsletter.  The club had about 70 members and a bunch
of exchanges with other clubs.  I would guess that the press run was over 100 copies.
I think that I had the first publication of this bend.  The exchanges were free to reprint my
article, but did not do so.  At the time I wondered why none of the exchanges picked up my
article.  It is not often that a knot that is new, simple, compact and useful comes along.
These are prime sources, in that they found daylight
via publishing --one vastly more visible than the earlier.
(Recall that Burger published lineman's loop only to later
see Wright & Magowan's Alpine Journal make it more well
known as the butterfly.)
And you can know that I too discovered the zeppelin and
saw it as a SmitHunter's/1425a variation, circa 1976.
And I can try to check on Desmond Mandeville's claimed 1961
self-discovery of it; Budworth should be credible on this if
he's got it somewhere among his numerous books (or in KM),
which I can seek.

.:.  So, you have this end-2-end knot that was found by several
knots fiddlers following various muses?!  We don't really know
about the main one --i.e., whether Rosendahl discovered it or
got if from elsewhere (which hasn't shown up to us!), or if it
might've been a Joe Collins (or Bob Payne!?) invention wanting
an impressive legend.  I'll guess I speak for Mandeville in thinking
he like I was just fiddling around; Bob Thrun might've been more
directed in his looking.
(And probably Xarax & Allen would produce it in their moving
though the knots universe, too.)

--dl*
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roo

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Re: Knot Bio: Zeppelin bend
« Reply #54 on: November 07, 2017, 09:39:59 PM »
All of these whiz-bang-both-ends-at-once tying methods
are too clever by half, and go some ways to obscure the
differences among these related interlocked-overhands
knots.

The method of tying diagrams aren't trying to show the final structure in detail, nor do they dictate that both ends be tied at once.  They are meant to show a clear, unmessy, highly-memorable blueprint. 

Now, once the knot is tied, it can be inspected or photographed from 1000 different angles.  But as a substitute for a blueprint for memorization and execution, such photographs would confuse people and drive them away.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2017, 09:41:21 PM by roo »
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agent_smith

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Re: Knot Bio: Zeppelin bend
« Reply #55 on: November 07, 2017, 11:02:30 PM »
Dan, I am requesting an electronic copy of Bob Thrun's article from the caving club newsletter from 1967.

Can you do either of the following?
1. Scan the relevant pages (using a scanner/copier) and email them to me; or
2. Take a photo of the relevant pages using a digital camera and email them to me (this presumes you cant get access to a scanner/copier).

I would like to add these captured images of Bob Thrun's article to the Zeppelin knot Bio. I think this is of historical interest...and if nothing else, a tribute to his inventiveness and contribution to caving/abseiling techniques in general.

I have sent you a PM with my email address...

Mark G

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Knot Bio: Zeppelin bend
« Reply #56 on: November 09, 2017, 02:55:04 AM »
The method of tying diagrams ...
AHA, lead me to wonder if somehow the subject knot
came about in altering the tying of the carrick bend
by the classic "lattice form" (my term),
where one also sort of lays 270deg turned loops
together (well, forms one and then interweaves
the other end, but ...)  !?

And the carrick bend was something in the running
and known in zeppelin days & arena, yes?!

!   :)

agent_smith

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Re: Knot Bio: Zeppelin bend
« Reply #57 on: November 09, 2017, 04:51:55 AM »
New version uploaded...

VER 0.9a (09 NOV 2017).

Link to page: http://www.paci.com.au/knots.php (at #4 in the table)

Changelog:
[ ] page 1: added contents
[ ] page 2: amended with new image (anatomy of zeppelin bend)
[ ] page 12: new content added (from S Lentini)
[ ] page 15: new image and content added (200kg loading with content describing effect of load)

...

Once Dan Lehman supplies electronic copy of Bob Thrun's article from a caving club newsletter, the main body/structure of the paper will be completed.
After that, its a matter of dealing with any typos or last minute additions to content.

Mark G

« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 04:54:34 AM by agent_smith »

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Knot Bio: Zeppelin bend
« Reply #58 on: November 10, 2017, 02:31:13 AM »
New version uploaded...
VER 0.9a (09 NOV 2017).

Comments.

0) Saying that nearly all known knots have an Ashley #
 is saying implicitly that neither I nor Xarax nor ... know
knots :: IMO, I've sketched perhaps 2000 "new" knots
by now (and most weren't in ABoK but some were,
I later realized --quite the Sherlock I was!).
There are many known knots not there --as you should
know, most "friction/climbing/ascending hitches" are NOT
there, nor medical, nor fishing knots.

1) Asserting that the sometimes jamming of SmitHunter's bend
is "likely a result of the inter-woven overhand knots"
misses the point that Ashley's  "   "  " -based #1408,
#1452, #1425a-with-"twisted"-tails, & #1425 do not
have this characteristic.  (You're inflating your zep.knot
article with hot air!)
But I can see merit in your note, in that in #1425a's case,
the SParts *lean* towards each other and give the collar
a single-dia to wrap tightly around,
whereas the z. and other knots have ways to resist
this (Z. turns are trying to pull apart; so, too, #1425,
where tail wraps resist the opening; #1408 is most
z.-like in geometry here).

2) Asher's Eastern Z. w/crossed tails might not benefit
the parent knot, but such crossing does wonders for the
false zep., if tails are hauled tight (as though to set
it for an offset knot!).
And such crossing improves #1425a (#1425b, call it).

3) "Most bends can be converted into their corresponding
eye knot(s)" both tickles a noun-# issue (avoid by writing
"A bend has a ... knot" or some such),
and presumes one version of "corresponding".
I believe that this forum carries some of my images
of a quartet of corresponding, z.-like eye knots.
(Consider that presumed to correspond from eye
to end-2-end re the lineman's loop / butterfly :
THAT is a different relation (eye is chopped)!

=> "An eye knot can be formed by ..." and one can
give both the presumed but also an arguably more
direct correspondence, wherein one begins with the
end-2-end knot, *twins* one side's part, and then
fuses one tail end to the opposite side's tail.
(With the zep. one thus has 100% load of
SPart around X's "axis" opposed by 100% from
eye legs, but in the more voluminous form of
twin strands (2x50%) and that volume-wise
imbalance.  We've fiddled versions to get the
SPart in between ... , with some success.
(( to tie the first-sort :: at point of making
   final, tail-tuck of SPart's overhand (for eye knot),
   TUCK IN A BIGHT and continue to tie the
   opposite overhand backwards with this bight,
   which of course emerges in the end-2-end's
   usual SPart place with instead a bight-eye. ))

(((Suffice it to say that this method does NOT
    like the grapevine bend !!  --but came
    to me upon seeing a blood knot presented
    for joining a "leader" to a bight's legs --works
    fine, for that knot.)))

3b) "The idea of converting end-2-end ... into eye knot
   ... by Harry Asher" !!  Holy Hot Air Headaches, Bat Man!
This is as silly as Asher's Law of Hitch Bight ... whatever ::
it celebrates the obvious.  (Looks like someone wanted
a bigger footnote count.  ;D  )

4) "tails ... crushed together ... limit slippage" :: One might
note that there is much LESS such crushing-together going
on in the z. than in the aforementioned other knots!
(And that these things don't hold in HMPE, egadz!)



Quote
[ ] page 15: new image and content added
 (200kg loading with content describing effect of load)
It occurs to me that you might benefit from showing
like loading in some different rope/material.  The knot's
been cited as jamming and I'd guess that might come
with firmer line in some cases, with SPart's turn not
compressing so much?!  Do you have any "static"
kernmantle?

Re slack-security, you might have trouble convincing
folks that such a loosely open knot can be trusted to
get no looser --esp. with the grapevine de rigeur
for such tasks.  You can play around with shake testing
#1408 & the z. to get some idea of how the latter might
be doing better --is it how there's (in more flexible rope)
a nearly right-angle bend for the center tuck,
and this doesn't enable easy *flowing* out?
--or that tails want to --from this angled bend--
spring into each other, which arrests them?
(Well, hmmm, ditto for SPart's somewhat sharp
U-turn, as contrasted with the roundness of a
bowline's turNip. !?)

--dl*
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siriuso

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Re: Knot Bio: Zeppelin bend
« Reply #59 on: November 10, 2017, 07:12:37 PM »
Hi SS369, thanks for the photos for the tying method.

yChan

 

anything