TIB

[SS369]

Good day All.

Just reaching out for some discussion(s) concerning the merits of eye knots that exhibit the ability to be tied in the bight that for some time has been a much admired and sought thing.

Aside for a rare or occasional situation, I don't see myself using the TIB methods. Most times I have to thread the eye leg through or around something and that negates the TIB-ability.

Don't get me wrong, I am in favor and support the investigating and exploring, I am just wondering who uses it and where/when?

Anyone?

SS

[Mobius]

Thank you for your post, Scott, I have been thinking similar thoughts myself lately.

When I first became interested in knotting a few years ago and learnt about TIB loops, TIB-ness became virtually a prerequisite feature of any loop I showed here.

One TIB loop that immediately comes to mind for TIB-ness is the Double Dragon Loop (DDL). The DDL has numerous advocates. I doubt that the DDL tied in the end is why this knot is popular, or that it is theoretically superior in some way. I think it is popular simply because it can be tied easily in TIB fashion and is secure, of course.

Unfortunately, many other TIB loops I have seen promoted on this site have TIB methods that are not workable IMHO. Some TIB methods I have seen touted would always require pictures, a table and a lot of patience

[agent_smith]

I have found some practical uses... (see attached images).

Attaching dual connectors with captive eyes to #1058 Double F8 was really helpfull.
Same goes for #1053 Butterfly attached to pulley with captive eye.

But in terms of the larger picture, it is nice to have a knot that can be tied and attached to an object in multiple ways. For me, its about having options.

It also advances our understanding of what makes one type of structure TIB versus one that isn't (ie the differences).

But I do understand Scott's point...

[SS369]

Thanks for the examples Mark.

I am interested in the usage of the #1058, would you elaborate please?

The pulley attachment is known to me although I don't get to use it often. Last use was to help direct a tree while staying outside of the fall zone.

As I have written: I am in favor of exploring, investigating and understanding of the TIB aspect.
Like you, I too like to have the knowledge from which to pick options!

SS

[SS369]

Hi mobius.

Thanks for chiming in.

I tie the DDL because it is fun (looks good too), but I can't think of a time when I use it over another eye knot.


SS

[alanleeknots]

Hi All,
        Let say I am the only one on the planet, know how to tie this two super knot, Knot A and Knot B, they both equal
        secure, easy to tie and easy to untie after heavy load,
        But knot A not TIB, Knot B is TIB, you only allow to pick only one, tell me which one you prefer to learn ?
        謝謝 alan lee.

[SS369]

Hi Alan.

From a intellectual level I would choose knot B.
But there can be other things to influence my personal choice. Aesthetics - how it looks to me, the particular scenario for its use,  the material(s), and other things could help me to choose the other.

But, I would want to know both! 

SS

[alanleeknots]

Hi All,
        I only said "LET SAY"  I am not smart enough to create super knot.
        But I can give you the example here for a less super knot here, they are totally equal secure, tie and untie.
        You have your choice just to learn the "PET version" or "PET and TIB version".
        Have a great day,   謝謝 alan lee.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42Lra6gS01E


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E66DEWZ_DyE&t=32s

[Mobius]

Alan gives us two examples of where TIB-ness in an end loop is a very good thing, thank you, Alan. Both those TIB knotting methods could be achieved easily when standing away from a table and could even have been given to us in words. They are both easy-to-tie TIB end loops. Here is another one:

Loop 1:

1) With the WE end in your right hand make two parallel bights one under the other

2) Take the WE and make an underhand round turn about the bight above leaving the WE hanging down in front of you

3) Flype the loop on the left forwards through the loop on the right

4) Dress the knot

Hopefully, no surprises on this knot

Here is another example of a loop with a simple TIB method:

Loop 2:

1) With the WE in your right hand, make an overhand loop with your left hand

2) Make an overhand loop with your right hand and feed the RH loop through the LH loop

3) Take the bight formed on the left and forward flype it over the loop on the right through 360^o, hence forming a collar

4) Dress the knot

Look here https://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=6193.0 for confirmation if you tried it.

My main point is that for TIB-ness in an end loop to be useful it has to be easy. If the TIB method is too difficult, then the TIB-ness (or not) of an end loop becomes irrelevant.

[Edit: I originally wrote "1¹/₂ underhand round turn". That should have been '1¹/₂ underhand turn', or, better yet, simply an 'underhand round turn' as it is now shown. Hopefully there is nothing else careless about my written instructions]

[alanleeknots]

Hi All,
       

Both those TIB knotting methods could be achieved easily when standing away from a table

        Mobius, can you please make some picture how you tie theses knots.
                    also some pictures of your Loop 1 and Loop, thanks you.
                     謝謝 alan lee.

[KC]

TiB's can be very handy; but in heavy loading recommend judicious use.
.
i always look at line as simply a flexible support device (vs. more familiar rigid supports).
If took metal bar (or chain etc.) and twisted/torqued, then loaded, would expect change in characteristics, and lower capacity.
So, similarly in TiB's take more effort not to be locking twists into the loading parts.
Actually even with a free end lacing thru a 'knot' always try to do with relaxed line, who's flowing architechture doesn't have a torqued multiplier/twist in it as i groom and inspect the support architecture putting in place .
Especially with stiffer lines and/or higher loads and/or smaller host mount and/or remote location.
.
TiB's more likely to lock torqued twists into architecture of knot(that gives it's own weakness factor as then a stacked multiplier of loading against the capacity of the line).
Line/ flexible devices would seem even more sensitive to the distortions ; for they pay the sin(e) tax of any side loading forces, but can only resist/support load on the inline/long axis of line/flexible device.  Rigid device pays side force sin(e) tax also, but then can also  resist/support on that cross-axis(flexible device can't directly); and in either direction (flexible dev only resist/support in tension direction on inline axis).
 

[enhaut]

@KC
Your post needs its own Rosetta stone!

[Mobius]

Hi All,
       

Both those TIB knotting methods could be achieved easily when standing away from a table

        Mobius, can you please make some picture how you tie theses knots.
                    also some pictures of your Loop 1 and Loop, thanks you.
                     謝謝 alan lee.

Hi Alan,

The first loop is a Double Dragon Loop. I tie it the same way as shown on Animated Knots https://www.animatedknots.com/doubledragon/index.php (use their invert image feature).

The second loop is an RH Bowline with a very simple to reproduce 'Yosemite' tail tuck. It is shown here: https://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=6193.0. I will post some pictures of the TIB method in that thread later.

To be a little clearer perhaps, the 'standing away from a table' reference just means that someone should not have to lay out a rope on a table and do a whole lot of independent twists and turns to tie the knot TIB. In some TIB methods, the table is virtually operating as a third hand. That is unacceptable to my mind and destroys the TIB method entirely.

Cheers, Ian.

[Mobius]

TiB's can be very handy; but in heavy loading recommend judicious use.

A good TIB method of tying avoids the issue you describe below and the 'judicious' warning I think.

TiB's more likely to lock torqued twists into architecture of knot(that gives it's own weakness factor as then a stacked multiplier of loading against the capacity of the line).

Indeed, I have certainly tied some knots in a TIB fashion and ended up with some awkward twists within the knub that, at the very least, contort the knot. I believe spending minutes in straightening out such kinks is unacceptable for a good TIB method. After minimal dressing, TIB methods for a loop need to faithfully reproduce the loop as if it had been tied in the end.

[agent_smith]

Per KC:

TiB's can be very handy; but in heavy loading recommend judicious use.

Dictionary meaning: having, showing, or done with good judgement or sense.

Difficult to ascertain precisely what you are trying to say...
I have never experienced any issues with using TIB eye knots - particularly TIB Bowlines - with heavy loading.

Per KC:

TiB's more likely to lock torqued twists into architecture of knot(that gives it's own weakness factor as then a stacked multiplier of loading against the capacity of the line).

This appears to be incorrect.
An example is #1085 Double F8 and #1053 Butterfly - they function well and have no net torque as you describe it (provided you pay attention to dressing - particularly with #1053 - although different dressings of the eye legs can be achieved).

per Mobius:

To be a little clearer perhaps, the 'standing away from a table' reference just means that someone should not have to lay out a rope on a table and do a whole lot of independent twists and turns to tie the knot TIB. In some TIB methods, the table is virtually operating as a third hand. That is unacceptable to my mind and destroys the TIB method entirely.

Although a strict definition of 'TIB' simply refers to tying a knot without access to the tail ends. Using a table as an aid does not disturb this definition. What matters is access to either end of the rope/cord.