yChan's Knot - Y3A Loop Knot

[siriuso]

Hi dear all,

I have a New Bowline to post here for your comment.

Happy knotting
yChan

[alanleeknots]

Hi All,
        yChan, This knot isn't bowline at all, it is a jam loop.
Mark have mention 

both legs of the collar must be fully encircled and gripped by [a] nipping loop.

        Then you can call it bowline.  謝謝 alanleeknots
       

[agent_smith]

Hello yChan,

And thank you for sharing your creations. It is appreciated.

This structure is not [a] 'Bowline'.

In the first instance, there is no 'nipping loop'.

At the core (nub) of your presentation, there is a simple overhand knot (#46). This isn't a 'loop' - and furthermore, it isn't a functional nipping loop.
A loop is a helix created by an overlap of one rope segment over (or under) the other. It does not have to scribe a 360 degree arc to be a 'loop' (it can be less than 360 degrees). A loop may take the form of S or Z chirality.

A 'loop' becomes a 'nipping loop' when both of its ends are loaded - and it fully encircles and clamps (squeezes) both legs of a 'collar'. When the nipping loop is freely able to encircle and clamp segments of the knot core - it is 'functional' (ie a functional nipping loop).

As an example, #1431 Sheet bend does not have a functional 'nipping loop', because it is not loaded at both ends. In #1010 Bowline, the 'nipping loop' is loaded at both ends.

Fundamentally, all 'Bowlines' have a functional nipping loop within the core (ie nub) of the knot structure - and this nipping loop is freely able to encircle and clamp elements within the core.

I have had discussions with Derek Smith about the definition of a 'loop'. I have tendered my theory of what a 'loop' is (above).

If we don't have a strict set of rules as to what defines a Bowline, almost any eye knot can claim the title of 'Bowline'.


EDIT NOTE: Problems with 100KB file limit... hopefully working now.

[Dan_Lehman]

Hi All,
        yChan, This knot isn't bowline at all, it is a jam loop.

Jamming is a relative term, per materials & force,
like some other attributes.  This knot holds open a
long reach of the base overhand and, so, in at least
less elastic cordage should not jam, at least at loads
reasonably given.  In elastic rope, high loads will
diminish the diameter and can lead to a pinching
that causes jamming as parts close to surround
the shrunken diameter other parts and then lock
shut when absence of force sees those parts swell
back to normal size!

(I'm thinking that Ashley has something like these
as #1029, 1033? --thereabouts     )


--dl*
====

[alanleeknots]

Hi All,
         

Quote from: eric22 on August 14, 2018, 08:05:54 PM
Hi All,
        yChan, This knot isn't bowline at all, it is a jam loop.

Jamming is a relative term, per materials & force,
like some other attributes.  This knot holds open a
long reach of the base overhand and, so, in at least
less elastic cordage should not jam, at least at loads
reasonably given.  In elastic rope, high loads will
diminish the diameter and can lead to a pinching
that causes jamming as parts close to surround
the shrunken diameter other parts and then lock
shut when absence of force sees those parts swell
back to normal size!

(I'm thinking that Ashley has something like these
as #1029, 1033? --thereabouts     )


--dl*
====

Dan, you did'nt finish what you try to reply, I didn't see any words it is a bowline or not ?
         謝謝 alanleeknots




 

[agent_smith]

per Dan Lehman:

Jamming is a relative term, per materials & force,
like some other attributes.

In reply, as long a tester specifies which type of rope/cord material is used to probe a knots resistance to jamming - there should be no controversy.
When the type of rope/cord material is not specified, this would be problematic.
It is difficult for a knot tester to evaluate a multitude of different rope/cord materials - usually, only one type of material is used.

For example, I think it would be too onerous to require all knot testing to be carried out with both bungy/elastic material and EN1891 Type A or EN892 dynamic rope. Also, for some testers, to obtain and test both EN 1891 type A rope and EN 892 dynamic rope is too demanding in terms of the cost of sourcing materials.

[DerekSmith]

Hi dear all,

I have a New Bowline to post here for your comment.

Happy knotting
yChan

Hi yChan,  what aspect of this knot do you feel makes it qualify as a Bowline?

Derek

[siriuso]

Hi all and Derek,

As I am free to get back to my computer, I will post my 3 bowlines in photos to indicate their components, that is why I name them Bowlines.

Happy knotting
yChan

[siriuso]

Hi dear all and Derek,

The making of these knots are trails by using alternative knots/components, in stead of using helix loop. I use #559 Marlingspike Hitch (not #206 Crossing Knot) , or #514 Overhand Knot as the nipping loops for different 'New' bowlines. I agree to Derek's suggestion it is worth exploring.

I name them 'Bowline' because they compose with the elements so shown in #1010 Bowline. While after all views and discussions in this forum, I do not mind if these knots are categorized into 'Bowline' or not. If they fell to achieve the definitations, I would name them as Loop Knot. IMO, I do not prefer using the name 'Eye Knot' because an eye implies small hole/opening/ring, but a closed/fixed loop is much bigger and for use to encircling or connecting object(s) of bigger size(s).

The components of these knots are : -

Collar - in Y2A & Y3A Bwls : yes, they exist.
in Yia Bwl : yes, it exists in twisted form.

Nipping Loop - in Y2A & Y3A Bwls : Overhand Knot are used (while #1019 Eskimo Bowstring Loop Knot has it's WE goes round it's SP.)
in Yia Bwl : Marlingspike Hitch is used.

2 Legs - in Y2A & Y3A Bwls : yes, they exist.
in Yia Bwl : yes, they exist.

WE tucking - in Y2A Bwl : WE enters to the eye formed by one leg (in the way different to the Ashley's Loop which I posted in KM 137). To be more secure, the WE should be a round turn instead of just a turn as previous presented. I revised it to 'New Y2A Bowline' and present here. Please refer to this 'New' comer.
in Y3A Bwl : WE goes between two legs and enters to the eye formed by one leg.
in Yia Bwl : WE tucks in the way of a marlingspike to the Marlingspike Hitch. Finished with a round turn to obtain security though a turn is good for the purpose.

Jamming - Y2A & Y3A Bwls : not sure, because Overhand Knot tightens/encircling/binding the rope not in it's centre eye, but in one of the opening.
Yia Bwl : not sure, because Marlingspike Hitch is used and a round turn WE tucking (can be tied loosely or tight).

Untying - knocking down the collar and nipping loop.

Here are the photos showing the 'New Y2A Bowline'.



Happy knotting
yChan

[Dan_Lehman]

Dan, you did'nt finish what you try to reply, I didn't see any words it is a bowline or not ?
         謝謝 alanleeknots

Oh, I hand't tried to reply re that question,
which seems adequately answered by others:
no, it's an overhand-based eye knot.

(Although I have yet again, at The Shore (Cape May),
photo'd knots that most here wouldn't call a bowline
although that was in fact what they were, at birth!)

--dl*
====

[Dan_Lehman]

per Dan Lehman:

Jamming is a relative term, per materials & force,
like some other attributes.

In reply, as long a tester specifies which type of rope/cord material is used to probe a knots resistance to jamming - there should be no controversy.

Even here, there is debate about whether something
can be (easily?) untied or not --YMMV per untyer.   

And in the case of the bowlines I've seen in trawler
mooring lines, an additional question re how "SS369'f"
the knot is set vis-a-vis the collar tightness/size.
(I sometimes wonder if capsizing is wanted or at least
accepted, vs. trying to prevent it!?)


--dl*
====

[siriuso]

Hi dear all,

Up to now, I have received comments mostly focus on my knots' names because I named them bowlines. Upon the comments made by our fellow expert members, these knots are not qualified as Bowline. I concur with their opinions based on some well observed definitions. So I modified these post titles, and hope to receive more comments on these Loop Knots.

Happy Knotting
yChan

[agent_smith]

Hello yChan,

Your idea of using #559 Marlinspike hitch is very interesting and possibly hasn't been attempted before (note that I wrote 'possibly' because I cant be 100% certain).

#559 is 'TIB' (Tiable-In-the-Bight) and it is jam resistant.
So this qualifies as a nipping 'component' (or 'element' or 'structure' or 'mechanism')

I did give one possible example of how #559 could be used to form what I referred to as a 'virtual Bowline'.
Of course, there are other possible variations that you could explore. I used the term 'virtual' as a qualifier that the structure; "is in the likeness of" or, "is a close representation of".

It is important that the nipping component is freely able to encircle and clamp both legs of the collar without jamming (which some prefer to conceptualize as a 'bight' component). The reason why I identify the 'legs' is because they could in fact enter the nipping component from opposite sides (as with #1033 Carrick loop).

Do I need to add the qualifying remark that this was written by my own hand and represents my own views?

[siriuso]

Hi Mark,

Thanks for all your comments.

About your last thread in this post, I am afraid you are talking about my Yia Loop Knot, and mistakes it as I use in Y2A & Y3A Loop Knots.

I use #559 Marlingspike Hitch (not #206 Crossing Knot) for Yia Loop Knot, #514 Overhand Knot for Y2A and Y3A Loop Knots.

Happy Knotting
yChan

[agent_smith]

I am afraid you are talking about my Yia Loop Knot, and mistakes it as I use in Y2A & Y3A Loop Knots.

No, there is no 'mistaking' anything

yChan, I was simply commenting that I find the use of #559 Marlinspike hitch 'interesting'. I didn't attach or assign the #559 hitch to any particular creation of yours.
I was merely stating that I find the concept interesting! It just happened to be posted in this thread...
Does that make sense to you?