Sailing in modern times.

[jensstark]

Hello! New member here.

As a sailor (the hobbyist version), I have an interest in the practical application of ropes and knots.

Most of what we use are a number of knots which came up during the ages of laid natural fiber ropes.
Which fell out of fashion for a number of reasons. (There are still some laid ropes, but natural fiber ropes are probably only used by some very diehard traditionalist on ancient sailing vessels.)

Which leaves us with a question: Are the current knots we teach aspiring sailors still the optimum?
I am looking for stuff a competent sailor SHOULD know, in addition to the barebone curriculum taught in German license courses.

This is a list of the knots currently required for German sailing knot competency (We are probably talking about RYA Competent Crew Member level.).
The student must be able to demonstrate them during the practical exam, but typically not apply them (apart from the belaying) in a real situation.

Clove Hitch (ABOK 53)
- useful, but it comes with a number of caveats.

Rolling Hitch (ABOK 1735)
- rarely used, but quite useful in case it IS needed...

Single and Double Sheet Bend (ABOK 1, ABOK 1434)
- We still use it a lot, quite often the double sheet bend.

Round turn and two half hitches (ABOK 1720)
- Massively underrated, easy to undo under load and more reliable than the Clove Hitch.

Figure of Eight knot (ABOK 420)
- Not used to connect two ropes (where it is perfect), but only as end-of-line terminator.

Reef knot (ABOK 74)
- The most useless of the bunch, IMO.

Bowline (ABOK 1010 et al.)
- Ring loading/Cross loading can be a problem, when people abuse it...

Cleat Hitch
- Different from the UK OXO version.

Would YOU consider that a reasonable selection?

[roo]

I can suggest a few as a starting point:

https://notableknotindex.webs.com/Zeppelin.html (vastly better than the sheet bend variants for security)

https://notableknotindex.webs.com/gnathitch.html

https://notableknotindex.webs.com/pilehitch.html

https://notableknotindex.webs.com/sailorhitches.html (dump the rolling hitch)

https://notableknotindex.webs.com/waterbowline.html

https://notableknotindex.webs.com/butterflyloop.html

[jensstark]

I can suggest a few as a starting point:
https://notableknotindex.webs.com/Zeppelin.html (vastly better than the sheet bend variants for security)
https://notableknotindex.webs.com/gnathitch.html
https://notableknotindex.webs.com/pilehitch.html
https://notableknotindex.webs.com/sailorhitches.html (dump the rolling hitch)
https://notableknotindex.webs.com/waterbowline.html
https://notableknotindex.webs.com/butterflyloop.html

Thank you!

They look like very usable knots.

The pile hitch is the only one you see being taught by better instructors or find used by professionals around here.
My wife likes the butterfly hitch - and remembers how to tie it, even if knots aren't her strongest side.
I stumbled over the water bowline while researching, and while the regular bowline is a staple knot, this one might be absolutely worth knowing, even if it does indeed look a bit unusual. But I was surprised at the many variations of bowlines out there.
The rolling hitch was even a late addition to the exam, but I feel the need to grab some rope to play with the sailor hitches.
Gnat hitch? Admittedly, I have never heard of it! Unlike the Zeppelin hitch, which dropped out of fashion here, I think, together with the Hindenburg.

Another important one would be the constrictor hitch - you need a knot or two which is more or less jamming by default.

[Dan_Lehman]

... the butterfly hitch ... the Zeppelin hitch,
... constrictor hitch ...

I see a "hitch" in your terminology --as in, too many of 'em!

which dropped out of fashion here, I think, together with the Hindenburg.

Or was never IN fashion : traces of any actual usage
of this fabled knot are yet unfound, if they exist.
Which doesn't deny its benefit : easy untying,
and some general good slack security.

Another important one would be the constrictor hitch - you need a knot or two which is more or less jamming by default.

Though rumors of its jamming go beyond reality,
in many cases --just parroting of Ashey's warning
(which I think he et al. see as promotion in disguise).
It certainly can take some work to untie.
How well it serves qua hitch vs. binder is a separate
question.

Incorporating the slip-knot as a finish to e.g.
the rolling hitch is a way of gaining security
(slack & loaded) along with a slipped tying (the
above knots being tied to share the slipped tail;
i.e., the overhand is in the latter knot's tail
and its slipped tail thus slips both).


--dl*
====

[jensstark]

@Dan_Lehman: thank you! I do not expect to reinvent the repertoire of sailing knots, but the existing literature only provides some basic knots.
No caveats, no explanations.
Hitches are well-researched, by comparison, but I agree that you do not want to duplicate functions.

[Dan_Lehman]

The knotting literature tends to be lousy.
Much of it comes as copies of was previously
published, not necessarily coming either
initially or on re-presentation with insight
as to Why...? (or validity as to Whether...? ) !

It will be good to begin anew, stating each
application's rope-needs and then how knotting
has solved them (or not).  There are some things
we know, of course.  But I, though led to believe
that indeed a "sheepshank" was something actually
tied & used, cannot myself tell you how or why!!
--after centuries ... !


--dl*
====

[jensstark]

Dan,

my apologies for the late answer - I should check here more often!

The first book about knots I read mentioned the sheepshank. I tried it, found it somewhat scary.
If you read multiple sources, including older ones, you learn a lot about "our" most popular knots.
Often, these texts mention caveats. "Do not use for soandso.", "Might jam", "only use with some kind of safety in place".
They are taught because they are relatively simple, easy to learn and check, will more or less work, but the complete story is rarely ever told.

- Jens

[KC]

Sheep Shank was even iffy in Natural more frictives; and so carries to here to synthetics with even less stability.
Nipping Loops lay flatter to rest of rope, less right angled like more dependable Bowline (unless collar of Bowline not close/stiffening position)
Can't prove it but i think can get Sheep Shank more stable if loose eyes are opposing/not to same size.
.
Sheep Shank is more of an example of properties and comparisons than functional/dependable working knot; especially now in synthetics.
>> would look to other ways to shorten or isolate line sections unless stopper or reeve the loose eyes made.
.
As a HITCH i prefer similar just Bitter End not buried so deep of Bag (or GroundLine) over Constrictor, as Nip rotates to higher position, easier to make and to give the slip to.
Bag also makes great binder, but can't outrun the more solid wall of Constrictor for binding a spreading force from within as used in binding (as opposed to linear force coming from a leg as as external force input if used as hitch).  Slip made easily, especially if folding construction in twine to slip over end of target rope etc.
.
Pile and Sailor are very unique family/class/siblings to me combining Crossed (Clove like) and Backhand (Muenter, Cow like) properties into 1 great construction each.  PROPERLY aligned Sailor even lends form to support host (that would be very helpful if support had these rope guides) to stabilize TOP Nip most properly (as most opposing position against downward Natural weighted load pull perspective) AND also about Nips all force from passing thru first primary loaded arc(fed directly by load leg force) to hang more than wrap with force so much so ABoK says won't saw thru branch in usage as child's swing, just rocks from this highpoint passing lesser force to the 2nd 90 degrees of primary 180 arc than perhaps any other knot!!!  Further around the arcs does have the side pressure of OFF HOST crossing of Muenter/Cow/BackHand type but not the related deformity because of the MASSIVE tension reduction of the crossing that trys to bend the full loaded leg of support force to loading.  Sailor very strong, but Achilles's Heel is in the brag of hangs from top of hook/first 90 of primary arc from Standing Part to load, as is isolating wear to not share so much past this point, ABoK does note several times on SMALL support RT shares out wear to make stronger.  So i think should be at least 3 diameters of rope for support  in nominal stiff rope or there abouts.